Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 01:37 PM

Like I said... YOU know better than God, hence YOU do what YOU want to do, because YOU say so.

Yes, and I live a decent, moral, loving, fulfilling life without god, thank you. I would not consider my life so if I lived it by the OT laws.

You make it sound like, being an atheist, I must be some kind of whoremongering, dope dealing, axe murdering, child-molesting, stopsign-running narcissistic selfish bastard son-of-a-bitch or something.

Doing what I want to do, I'm pretty sure, results in me doing much the same as you do - working hard, eating and drinking in moderation, being kind to others, donating to charities, fighting prejudice and injustice, loving my family, mowing the lawn, picking up trash in the park, giving the occasional streetperson a handout, etc. Contrary to popular belief, most atheists live normal lives. Most I know have a higher sense of social responsibility than many theists I know.

I, like wildernesse, follow some of the accepatble precepts mentioned in the bible (and elsewhere, BTW; the bible is not the sole source of such moral guidance), such as the golden rule. No way in hell would I submit to a god that would establish a law that I must kill my son if he curses me.

DixieNurse · 06-12-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

from Mageth: (in OT times...)..would you kill your child, or even allow your child to be killed, if he or she cursed you, because it was God's Law? And keep in mind that, if you didn't do that, or even prevented it from being done, you would be breaking God's Law. "He must be put to death". So would you obey God's law and kill your child for cursing you?

Hi Mageth!

As a woman--(oh, let's not go there...lol)--anyway--I would have to say that I probably would have to do this...remember, there just weren't that many folks willing to buck the system back then..not as far as civil liberties are concerned...

However, that being said, if this WERE my kid, he'd know better than to curse his mama!

How's that?

Dixie

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 01:46 PM

The wind is the same whether you are walking into or away from it.

(Another "non-answer" to make you think)

But it's best to be walking upwind when you fart...

Are you Christian or Buddhist? If the former, dispense with the pithy Koans.

Biff the unclean · 06-12-2003, 01:48 PM

This is a truly astonishing thread.
Nice work.

In the scene in the NT where the priests complain to Jesus that he doesn't wash he counters by complaining that they reinterpret the law instead of upholding it. It was this very law he was talking about. The Romans wouldn't let the Jews stone their teens to death anymore so they reinterpreted the law to let the kids live and Jesus called them on it. So we know that Jesus was in favor of this law because the bible goes out of its way to say so.
It's a law of God. It's the will of Jesus. Yet only a monster would obey it.
And no Xian will give a straight answer. Paladin could give Fred Astaire a run for his money at tap dancing.
I wonder if they will even give themselves straight answers ? I don't see how they possibly could.

wildernesse · 06-12-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by braces_for_impact
Another non answer I notice. Even if we are "Viewing this through our cultural lens" this does not excuse the behavior. It's still wrong. When women are stoned or scarred and mistreated today in the Middle East, are we supposed to turn a blind eye because we're simply "viewing it through our own cultural lens"?

Of course not. I would like a yes or no answer please. How come when a question like this is asked we can never get a yes or no? We always get a dodge? Could it be because inherently you know it's wrong? Could it be because you would appear as a viscious monster if you said yes? Why can't you apply those same standards to your deity?

I don't think it's a loaded question, I think it's fair.

Is the question what would *I* do? I thought it was what would I have done if I were "a Jew living under the law" 2500 years ago.

To the second, I can't know. To the first, I wouldn't stone my child. I've answered questions like this before.

Other cultures do things that I think are "wrong". I do things that other cultures think is "wrong". Wrong is relative. Of course, I stick with what my culture has taught me, because it's "right". There is no inherent knowing what is "wrong"--morality is taught to us. Which makes it no less powerful--because most of us remain surrounded within our own cultures until we die.

--tibac

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by DixieNurse
Hi Mageth!

As a woman--(oh, let's not go there...lol)--anyway--I would have to say that I probably would have to do this...remember, there just weren't that many folks willing to buck the system back then..not as far as civil liberties are concerned...

By "do this", do you mean consent to letting your child be killed for cursing you?

Note that the way the Law was written, if your child cursed you in private, say in your own home, you would be required by the Law to report him to the proper authorities so he could be dragged out in to the street and stoned. Would you report him?

However, that being said, if this WERE my kid, he'd know better than to curse his mama!

Umm, OK. I'd prefer to bring up my children in a loving way so that they wouldn't want to curse me, though.

How's that?

If I get your drift, at least you're honest. But do you believe the Law was handed down by God? It's different to say that, as a woman, you would have to submit to the Law of the culture you lived in (personally, they'd have to kill me first), than, if you believe God inspired the Law, that you would obey the Law because it was God's Law which you could not disobey.

PaladInChrist · 06-12-2003, 01:56 PM

Quote:

You make it sound like, being an atheist, I must be some kind of whoremongering, dope dealing, axe murdering, child-molesting, stopsign-running narcissistic selfish bastard son-of-a-bitch or something.

How did you get that out of my observation that YOU do what YOU want to do, and that is what is important to YOU?

I never implied that you are evil, although I suppose you are expecting to hear that from me, being a Christian?

PaladInChrist · 06-12-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Do you believe in "moral absolutes" set by God that are unchanging through time, cultural shifts, etc.? (Yay or nay).

Yay.

Quote:

Do you believe that many of the OT "laws" were not "moral laws" but "ceremonial" and subject to change? (Yay or nay).

Yay.

The second one is a little fuzzy though.

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 01:59 PM

How did you get that out of my observation that YOU do what YOU want to do, and that is what is important to YOU?

I never implied that you are evil, although I suppose you are expecting to hear that from me, being a Christian?

In my experience, that's typically implied when a theist makes that particular observation about a non-believer. Heck, even the bible makes that clear. Doing what I want to do, I do little different than what the average theist does. I don't go to church often; that's the only significant difference.

Biff the unclean · 06-12-2003, 02:00 PM

Dixie in answer to your "how's that?" I would say that it makes you an immoral person and a monster to be willing to have your teen stoned to death for being fresh. "How's that?" it's very bad, that's how's that

06-12-2003, 01:55 PM	#36
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Re: Re: Question for Xians - what would you do? Originally posted by DixieNurse Hi Mageth! As a woman--(oh, let's not go there...lol)--anyway--I would have to say that I probably would have to do this...remember, there just weren't that many folks willing to buck the system back then..not as far as civil liberties are concerned... By "do this", do you mean consent to letting your child be killed for cursing you? Note that the way the Law was written, if your child cursed you in private, say in your own home, you would be required by the Law to report him to the proper authorities so he could be dragged out in to the street and stoned. Would you report him? However, that being said, if this WERE my kid, he'd know better than to curse his mama! Umm, OK. I'd prefer to bring up my children in a loving way so that they wouldn't want to curse me, though. How's that? If I get your drift, at least you're honest. But do you believe the Law was handed down by God? It's different to say that, as a woman, you would have to submit to the Law of the culture you lived in (personally, they'd have to kill me first), than, if you believe God inspired the Law, that you would obey the Law because it was God's Law which you could not disobey.

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06-12-2003, 01:37 PM	#31
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Like I said... YOU know better than God, hence YOU do what YOU want to do, because YOU say so. Yes, and I live a decent, moral, loving, fulfilling life without god, thank you. I would not consider my life so if I lived it by the OT laws. You make it sound like, being an atheist, I must be some kind of whoremongering, dope dealing, axe murdering, child-molesting, stopsign-running narcissistic selfish bastard son-of-a-bitch or something. Doing what I want to do, I'm pretty sure, results in me doing much the same as you do - working hard, eating and drinking in moderation, being kind to others, donating to charities, fighting prejudice and injustice, loving my family, mowing the lawn, picking up trash in the park, giving the occasional streetperson a handout, etc. Contrary to popular belief, most atheists live normal lives. Most I know have a higher sense of social responsibility than many theists I know. I, like wildernesse, follow some of the accepatble precepts mentioned in the bible (and elsewhere, BTW; the bible is not the sole source of such moral guidance), such as the golden rule. No way in hell would I submit to a god that would establish a law that I must kill my son if he curses me.

06-12-2003, 01:46 PM	#33
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The wind is the same whether you are walking into or away from it. (Another "non-answer" to make you think) But it's best to be walking upwind when you fart... Are you Christian or Buddhist? If the former, dispense with the pithy Koans.

06-12-2003, 01:48 PM	#34
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	This is a truly astonishing thread. Nice work. In the scene in the NT where the priests complain to Jesus that he doesn't wash he counters by complaining that they reinterpret the law instead of upholding it. It was this very law he was talking about. The Romans wouldn't let the Jews stone their teens to death anymore so they reinterpreted the law to let the kids live and Jesus called them on it. So we know that Jesus was in favor of this law because the bible goes out of its way to say so. It's a law of God. It's the will of Jesus. Yet only a monster would obey it. And no Xian will give a straight answer. Paladin could give Fred Astaire a run for his money at tap dancing. I wonder if they will even give themselves straight answers ? I don't see how they possibly could.

06-12-2003, 01:59 PM	#39
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	How did you get that out of my observation that YOU do what YOU want to do, and that is what is important to YOU? I never implied that you are evil, although I suppose you are expecting to hear that from me, being a Christian? In my experience, that's typically implied when a theist makes that particular observation about a non-believer. Heck, even the bible makes that clear. Doing what I want to do, I do little different than what the average theist does. I don't go to church often; that's the only significant difference.

06-12-2003, 02:00 PM	#40
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Dixie in answer to your "how's that?" I would say that it makes you an immoral person and a monster to be willing to have your teen stoned to death for being fresh. "How's that?" it's very bad, that's how's that

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