Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 10-29-2002, 04:49 AM

Douglas, in the <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=001716&p=8" target="_blank">pictures as proof</a> thread you posted these comments:

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
God created the world without suffering, evil, or death. God gave Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world, and the world (the Earth and all "within" it) became subject to their authority. When they submitted their authority to Satan (effectively), and corrupted their purity by sinning, they gave the dominion of the Earth over to Satan (effectively). Because of their sin, the Earth was cursed "for their sake", probably because this was due punishment for them.

Also, the suffering of innocent animals would be an object lesson for humanity, pointing to their own lack of innocence. Necessary, but not God's desire; redeemable, since the Bible says that the Earth was subjected to futility, not "willingly", but it will be delivered from the "bondage of corruption". Sin has consequences more severe than a "time-out", and causes the innocent to suffer, until God puts a stop to it, which He will do.

In Christ,

Douglas

Douglas, we've been around this many times before, whether God desired suffering, evil, and death, seeing as he/she/it knew at the moment of creating the earth and its creatures that these things would inevitably enter the world as a result of his/her/its creations, but that's a bit beside the point. My point is, are you really suggesting that God withholds his/her/its benevolence from those who need it the most, innocent babies who have done no wrong, who are incapable of choosing to do evil, who are incapable of even asking for God's mercy?

Furhtermore, that they are being punished for the transgressions of ancestors they never even knew? And that not even those who reject Satan and submit to God's authority can hope for their children to gain any protection from this curse?How, then, are we supposed to know about this supposed benevolence if God doesn't show it?

Quote:

Also, the suffering of innocent animals would be an object lesson for humanity, pointing to their own lack of innocence.

Do you realize what a chilling portrait of God this paints? If God will make innocent animals suffer just to make a point, why should we hope for any better at his/her/its hands?

faded_Glory · 10-29-2002, 04:55 AM

The way these fundies work is that they accept everything their book and their minister tells them as true. Never mind the incredible stretches they have to go through to reconcile it all. There simply is no rational thought process along the lines of - "this is all so incoherent, it simply cannot be true."

The free will to reach that logical conclusion has been taken away from them by the very system they believe in: disbelieve and you are damned forever.

Sad, really.

fG

MrDarwin · 10-29-2002, 05:03 AM

A little postscript:

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
Sin has consequences more severe than a "time-out", and causes the innocent to suffer, until God puts a stop to it, which He will do.

Why not put a stop to it right now? Why not last week, or last year? How many more innocents will suffer before he/she/it does put a stop to it?

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

Monkeybot · 10-29-2002, 05:06 AM

Great topic, MrDarwin! However I'm going to move it to Misc. Religion Discussions.

Amen-Moses · 10-29-2002, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDarwin:
How many more innocents will suffer before he/she/it does put a stop to it?

I'd just like to point out that the proper designation is She/it/he, normally this is abbreviated to shite.

Amen-Moses

babelfish · 10-29-2002, 06:08 AM

Douglas said:

Quote:

God created the world without suffering, evil, or death.

So A&E and all the velociraptors, lions, sharks, and eagles ate fruit, being careful to plant the seeds so that no embryonic plants would be killed before they got a chance to live.

Quote:

God gave Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world, and the world (the Earth and all "within" it) became subject to their authority.

And He gave Adam "dominion" over Eve and later on got really P.O.'d when he couldn't control his wife.

Quote:

When they submitted their authority to Satan (effectively), and corrupted their purity by sinning, they gave the dominion of the Earth over to Satan (effectively).

And God stood by, helpless, as all the creatures he so lovingly formed (Satan included) spun wildly out of control, because..... (a) he was feeling quite vindictive that day, due to PCS (post-creation syndrome); (b) he isn't really all-powerful (but he doesn't want anyone to know); (c) he is really evil (but he doesn't want anyone to know)

Quote:

Because of their sin, the Earth was cursed "for their sake", probably because this was due punishment for them. Also, the suffering of innocent animals would be an object lesson for humanity, pointing to their own lack of innocence.

Things got worse and worse. The sharks, who had previously been satisfied with nibbling seaweed, started attacking helpless little herrings. The lions, suddenly inexplicably dissatisfied with a diet of nuts and berries, started attacking the surprised and helpless antelopes they had previously considered their friends. Oh it was horrible. A&E looked on, appalled and guilty, until they decided to try just a teeny bite of that tasty-looking meat, and well, before very long at all, God himself got quite bloodthirsty and started requiring animal sacrifices in great quantities.

Quote:

Necessary, but not God's desire;

Really? You could have fooled me.

Quote:

redeemable, since the Bible says that the Earth was subjected to futility, not "willingly", but it will be delivered from the "bondage of corruption". Sin has consequences more severe than a "time-out", and causes the innocent to suffer, until God puts a stop to it, which He will do.

Blah, blah, blah. So, after a long and protracted punishment, God will go ahead and change the world back to the way it should have been in the first place. I just wonder, if he has the power to do this, why didn't he do it right the first time? And if, in the new and improved kingdom, someone should use their free will to sin, is it going to be back to the old drawing board again?

Quote:

In Christ,

Douglas

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Sheep in the big city · 10-29-2002, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amen-Moses:


I'd just like to point out that the proper designation is She/it/he, normally this is abbreviated to shite.

Amen-Moses

LOL
Amen indeed Moses

Hobbs · 10-29-2002, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Necessary, but not God's desire

Mr Bender, if you find this thread, (or anyone else who may want to respond) I'll ask a question about this I've asked many times before but never received much of an answer to:

To what external standard or source is God subject such that all this suffering is necessary? (And it must be a standard external to and above God, else God himself is the source of the necessity of evil.)

gsx1138 · 10-29-2002, 09:36 AM

Quote:

God gave Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world, and the world (the Earth and all "within" it) became subject to their authority.

Here is that belief that we should bend the world to our will. We are not part of the Earth and Nature but above it. I've got some more oil wells that need to go up. Drill for the Lord.

Perchance · 10-29-2002, 10:59 AM

Hi Douglas,

I'm not sure what disasters that humans can't do anything about (such as terminal diseases that we don't know how to cure, or incidences of those diseases- the vast majority- that happened before we knew how to cure them) are supposed to teach humanity. If someone goes through the suffering of unstoppable physical pain, or loses a family member that way, the result is agony as well as, perhaps, compassion for others. What is the purpose of sheer pain?

If God existed and was human-like, there might be ways to account for this, say sadism. But God is unknowable, and has a plan we can't comprehend (supposedly), and yet we know that plan is good?

So, in a somewhat garbled fashion, I suppose that's my main question. If we can't see the ultimate purpose of this pain- if we're constrained by our limited human perspectives- then how are we supposed to rise above them and see the "greater purpose?" Both of these ideas seem fundamental, but they contradict each other and the idea of greater good collapses under its own weight.

-Perchance.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-29-2002, 04:55 AM	#2
faded_Glory Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1,128	The way these fundies work is that they accept everything their book and their minister tells them as true. Never mind the incredible stretches they have to go through to reconcile it all. There simply is no rational thought process along the lines of - "this is all so incoherent, it simply cannot be true." The free will to reach that logical conclusion has been taken away from them by the very system they believe in: disbelieve and you are damned forever. Sad, really. fG

10-29-2002, 05:06 AM	#4
Monkeybot Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,102	Great topic, MrDarwin! However I'm going to move it to Misc. Religion Discussions.

10-29-2002, 10:59 AM	#10
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Hi Douglas, I'm not sure what disasters that humans can't do anything about (such as terminal diseases that we don't know how to cure, or incidences of those diseases- the vast majority- that happened before we knew how to cure them) are supposed to teach humanity. If someone goes through the suffering of unstoppable physical pain, or loses a family member that way, the result is agony as well as, perhaps, compassion for others. What is the purpose of sheer pain? If God existed and was human-like, there might be ways to account for this, say sadism. But God is unknowable, and has a plan we can't comprehend (supposedly), and yet we know that plan is good? So, in a somewhat garbled fashion, I suppose that's my main question. If we can't see the ultimate purpose of this pain- if we're constrained by our limited human perspectives- then how are we supposed to rise above them and see the "greater purpose?" Both of these ideas seem fundamental, but they contradict each other and the idea of greater good collapses under its own weight. -Perchance.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.