Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 11-16-2002, 07:15 AM

I'll tell you what's even more (@*#&$ hilarious.

Look closely at this pic here dated november 6

<a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1036620679267_14/?hub=SciTech" target="_blank">Can you see the circle?</a>

It's clear as a bell in the lower right corner of the ossuary and nobody noticed, out of thousands who must have looked at this picture...

Vorkosigan

Toto · 11-16-2002, 10:25 AM

Prophet Mike: Do you mean this picture?

I can't see much of anything

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Toto · 11-16-2002, 11:24 AM

I wonder why this red circle-star is dated to 50-70? This article dates it to the 1st century. And is there any ochre there, or is that just surmised?

<a href="http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021115/UOSSUM/national/national/nationalTheNationHeadline_temp/9/9/24/" target="_blank">Inspection of ossuary produces more clues</a>

Quote:

Archeologist Ed Keall told a news conference that the clear outline of a carved funereal rosette -- a traditional adornment on bone boxes of the first century AD -- is visible on the back.

Dr. Keall accidentally discovered the two faintly incised concentric circles, which probably included red-painted six-point stars, on Monday morning while ROM conservator Ewa Dziadowiec was repairing cracks that the relic had sustained in transit from Israel earlier this month.

. . .

He said his best guess is that the rosette suggests the ossuary had been previously owned, and that the bones of James would have been placed in it when the original owner's bones disintegrated.

"Over all, I think it plays strongly to the idea that this was for a family of rather modest means, which is what we would expect."

Vorkosigan · 11-16-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Prophet Mike: Do you mean this picture?

I can't see much of anything

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Look in the right hand lower corner. Just above the crack and a little to the right, you can see two parallel arches, quite clearly, nearly directly above the diamond-shaped hole.

Michael

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]

Vorkosigan · 11-16-2002, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:


Look in the right hand lower corner. Just above the crack and a little to the right, you can see two parallel arches, quite clearly, nearly directly above the diamond-shaped hole.

Michael

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]

Forget it, I'm wrong. Those arches go somewhere else.

Michael

Clarice O'C · 11-16-2002, 03:18 PM

Beautiful, Toto.

Merci,
Clarice

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Clarice O'C ]

Toto · 11-16-2002, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Clarice O'C:
Hi Y'all,

This is a close-up view of the bone box. You can't see, I don't think, the red flecks here but you can see the star in the circle, on the right near the bottom. The star looks more like a flower to me.

<a href="http://www.graal.co.uk/ossuary.html" target="_blank">Ossuary</a>

Archaeologist Ed Keall calls it a funeral rosette:

"Closer examination of the controversial limestone ossuary said to have contained the bones of James, brother of Jesus, has yielded evidence that adds to its authenticity, experts at Toronto's Royal Ontario Museum said yesterday.

Archeologist Ed Keall told a news conference that the clear outline of a carved funereal rosette -- a traditional adornment on bone boxes of the first century AD -- is visible on the back.

Dr. Keall accidentally discovered the two faintly incised concentric circles, which probably included red-painted six-point stars, on Monday morning while ROM conservator Ewa Dziadowiec was repairing cracks that the relic had sustained in transit from Israel earlier this month.

"They were filming and the lights had been set up, and under the lights I could see it differently," Dr. Keall explained. "I just said, 'Ewa, look at that.' "

He said his best guess is that the rosette suggests the ossuary had been previously owned, and that the bones of James would have been placed in it when the original owner's bones disintegrated.

"Over all, I think it plays strongly to the idea that this was for a family of rather modest means, which is what we would expect."

<a href="http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021115/UOSSUM/national/national/nationalTheNationHeadline_temp/9/9/24/" target="_blank">Ed Keall</a>

The 'Globe and Mail' reads:

"On the other is an incised star-circle and very minute flecks of red paint, common decorations on ossuaries dating between AD 50 and AD 70." Notice that the decoration isn't a cross. But what does the star in the circle mean? This is an article, no photo:

<a href="http://globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021114/wossu1114a/" target="_blank">Globe and Mail</a>

A great close-up of the inscription, Aramaic language, reading: "Yakov (James) son of Yosef (Joseph) brother of Yeshua (Jesus)":

<a href="http://www.graal.co.uk/casketimage2.jpg" target="_blank">Inscription</a>

Cheers,
Clarice

[ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Toto · 11-16-2002, 06:10 PM

This is all very inconsistant.

The alleged circles are supposed to be on the back of the ossuary. It's really not clear if there is any ochre on it, or if there are some circles that look like other inscriptions that also have six pointed starts and ochre. Is it on the back because that is all that was on the ossuary before it was reused, so the inscription was placed on the blank side, or are these inscriptions usually on the back? I think the connection between ochre and funerals goes back to the stone age, so why does this date it to the first century?

Is there a record of ossuaries being reused after the bones disintegrated? I thought they were typically found with bones in them. How long would disintegration take? Was the inscription added for the reuse, in which case the date of the ossuary would be significantly earlier than the date of the inscription? This would make it highly unlikely that this is an ossuary that could be connected to someone who died in 62 CE.

And how can you read that sort of detail from those pictures? I just don't have that sort of resolution on my computer.

One of the last sane · 11-17-2002, 01:10 AM

Where is the circle supposed to be? I see a very nice clear circle immediately under the horizontal part of the crack, near the right hand edge of the box. Or have I just got a bad case of imaginitis?

Clarice O'C · 11-17-2002, 04:16 AM

"Pravda" online:

<a href="http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/14/39518.html" target="_blank">RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS THEORIZE ABOUT BONE BOX</a>

Best,
Clarice

11-16-2002, 10:25 AM	#102
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Prophet Mike: Do you mean this picture? I can't see much of anything [ November 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

11-16-2002, 03:18 PM	#106
Clarice O'C Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 408	Beautiful, Toto. Merci, Clarice [ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Clarice O'C ]</p>

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11-16-2002, 07:15 AM	#101
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I'll tell you what's even more (@*#&$ hilarious. Look closely at this pic here dated november 6 <a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1036620679267_14/?hub=SciTech" target="_blank">Can you see the circle?</a> It's clear as a bell in the lower right corner of the ossuary and nobody noticed, out of thousands who must have looked at this picture... Vorkosigan

11-16-2002, 06:10 PM	#108
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is all very inconsistant. The alleged circles are supposed to be on the back of the ossuary. It's really not clear if there is any ochre on it, or if there are some circles that look like other inscriptions that also have six pointed starts and ochre. Is it on the back because that is all that was on the ossuary before it was reused, so the inscription was placed on the blank side, or are these inscriptions usually on the back? I think the connection between ochre and funerals goes back to the stone age, so why does this date it to the first century? Is there a record of ossuaries being reused after the bones disintegrated? I thought they were typically found with bones in them. How long would disintegration take? Was the inscription added for the reuse, in which case the date of the ossuary would be significantly earlier than the date of the inscription? This would make it highly unlikely that this is an ossuary that could be connected to someone who died in 62 CE. And how can you read that sort of detail from those pictures? I just don't have that sort of resolution on my computer.

11-17-2002, 01:10 AM	#109
One of the last sane Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: hereabouts Posts: 734	Where is the circle supposed to be? I see a very nice clear circle immediately under the horizontal part of the crack, near the right hand edge of the box. Or have I just got a bad case of imaginitis?

11-17-2002, 04:16 AM	#110
Clarice O'C Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 408	"Pravda" online: <a href="http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/14/39518.html" target="_blank">RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS THEORIZE ABOUT BONE BOX</a> Best, Clarice

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