Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 02-03-2002, 09:34 AM

In the name of Allah, the Fictional, the Non-Existent

Practical Atheism - Some Reasons Why

Let's talk about outreach seminars. Outreach seminars are concentrated days of lectures and presentations intended to prove the truth of a religion beyond doubt. I attended an Orthodox Jewish seminar when I was a theist, and I must say it was impressive. Skilled lecturers, many with imposing titles, laid out their well-planned arguments. The case for Orthodox Judaism was conclusive.

As you well know, there are Christian outreach seminars too. These are just as good as the Jewish seminars in proving beyond all doubt the truth of the religion in question. I didn't attend a Christian outreach seminar, but from what I heard, you can't pass such a seminar without being saved, washed in the blood of Christ. And there are Islamic outreach seminars as well, especially in countries where infidelity is rampant, such as Turkey. I should probably give the Islamic seminars as much credit as the others, and it would not be rash to presume that those who attend those seminars get out as obedient servants of Allah, willing to kill and be killed in His name.

In summary, it seems that the truth is open for everyone to seek, conveyed with great talent by the outreach seminars. Jewish, Christian and Islamic outreach seminars all lead to one definite conclusion: that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the One True Religion, even though they contradict one another.

Well, I think you get the message: with well-planned showmanship and a selective display of facts, one can "prove" any religion to be The Truth (TM). So now the question is which is really the One True Religion. Which one is truly the one that the Creator of the Universe wants us to follow. We've got to find that out.

The best way of knowing which is God's One True Religion, out of the plethora of so many True Religions (the seminars prove them all to be true) is, of course, to ask God. God would surely tell, and He cannot lie, and asking the Author is the only safe method of finding the truth.

Sounds good, right? There's just one problem. One tiny problem: the big fucker doesn't speak! He used to speak to people in the past, but nowadays - nothing. His phone is disconnected, His fax machine is broken and His e-mail server is down. His FTP site (from which Muhammad downloaded the Qur'an) is now 404 Not Found. In short, there's no way of communicating with the Creator of the Universe, the Personal God.

Ask the theists about the Revelation of God: it is through a book of past account. Each of those religions claims to have the sole method of communication with God, and brands the communicative experiences of other religionists as incomplete at best, or counterfeit more usually.

Behold, the outreach seminars may leave you embarrassed, but remember their common conclusion: God communicated with humans in the past. As surely as all those seminars exclaim that the past had its instances of revelation, they exclaim that the present is practically atheistic. In the present there is no revelation, no communication. No-one sees God, no-one speaks to God. Revelation is history, or indefinite future. The present is godless to its very core.

Past revelation is an oxymoron. As Thomas Paine said in his Age of Reason, such things are not revelation at all, but merely hearsay. Revelation is only to the individual, on a singular, personal basis. God's revealing Himself through writing is like teaching someone to swim through an exchange of letters. If God does not deign to reveal Himself, to communicate with so many people who truly seek His contact, then He is as good as non-existent. May or may not exist in theory, but non-existent in practice. Leave out that vain philosophy of arguments from infinity, design, morality and so forth for the existence of God, which has but recreational value; what have you in practice? Nothing. No-one sees God, no-one speaks to God. Seek God, search for Him for a lifetime, and if you find something, what will you find? That He does not exist. He spoke in the past, and gave contrary messages, such worthless crumbs of divine communication which bear a strong smell of human fiction.

A just and loving God would never communicate in such a sloppy way as the outreach seminars imply. He would not confine Himself to past books and subtle clues of natural and historical changes. He would be personal, yes personal, and be open to those who seek Him. Dare I say God is so cruel as to hide Himself from the seekers? Better not blaspheme, therefore I shall say: irrelevant. No concern of present mankind.

I do not know which religion is true, nor do I care; they may all have been true in the past, but the present is atheism.

lpetrich · 02-03-2002, 11:49 PM

I agree about some supposed god who has gone into hiding after issuing a revelation to only a tiny subset of humanity.

A much more efficient approach would be to implant a revelation into everybody's consciousness. That way, everybody will be aware of it without any need for interpretation or transmission, and there will be no possibility of people being misled by others' transmission or translation errors or misunderstandings or misrepresentations.

I'm a computer programmer, meaning that I'm something of a creator, and I don't let my creations misbehave if I can reasonably avoid doing so. I make that qualification because I'm far from being either omnipotent or omniscient, and I'm not going to claim that I'm perfectly benevolent.

HRG · 02-04-2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
I agree about some supposed god who has gone into hiding after issuing a revelation to only a tiny subset of humanity.

A much more efficient approach would be to implant a revelation into everybody's consciousness. That way, everybody will be aware of it without any need for interpretation or transmission, and there will be no possibility of people being misled by others' transmission or translation errors or misunderstandings or misrepresentations.

Careful.

That's exactly the apologetic claim: that their god has implanted knowledge of his existence into each individual's conscience, and that the atheist stance is thus due to wilful disregard/culpable blindness etc.

A convenient argument for them, and almost unfalsifiable to boot, since some apologists have the sheer gall and chutzpah to tell the other fellow that they know better what he thinks than he himself does.

Quote:

I'm a computer programmer, meaning that I'm something of a creator, and I don't let my creations misbehave if I can reasonably avoid doing so. I make that qualification because I'm far from being either omnipotent or omniscient, and I'm not going to claim that I'm perfectly benevolent.

Right. That's the convincing answer to the apologists when they argue as above.

Regards,
HRG.

lpetrich · 02-04-2002, 10:01 AM

Quote:

HRG:
That's exactly the apologetic claim: that their god has implanted knowledge of his existence into each individual's conscience, and that the atheist stance is thus due to wilful disregard/culpable blindness etc.

Which would make sacred books superfluous; why aren't their contents embedded in our consciousness?

Quote:

(me on being a computer programmer)
HRG:
Right. That's the convincing answer to the apologists when they argue as above.

Are you being sarcastic, HRG?

chickensoupforthebowl · 02-04-2002, 10:17 AM

"In short, there's no way of communicating with the Creator of the Universe, the Personal God."

-They call it "prayer". Ever hear of it?

Mad Kally · 02-04-2002, 10:26 AM

Quote:

-They call it "prayer". Ever hear of it?

Oh my gawd, I've never heard of that! Why don't you tell us all about it?

edited to add: Is it that mumbling and saying Jezzussahhh that families and preachers do over the dying bodies of my terminally ill patients? I wonder why it never works? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

02-04-2002, 10:32 AM

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> LOL, Kally!

02-04-2002, 10:37 AM

Dev, I think you're quite right. It's particularly curious that god did all his/her/its communicating and revealing in the age before the advent of mass communications and (if we're just talking the Abrahamic religions here) confined the direct revelation to a particular region of the world. Seems to have missed China, which had a well-developed civilisation at the time.

zamboniavenger · 02-04-2002, 01:27 PM

Here, let me get you guys god's phone number...damn...I could of sworn I put it by my keys...

theophilus · 02-04-2002, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by devnet:
In the name of Allah, the Fictional, the Non-Existent

Practical Atheism - Some Reasons Why

Let's talk about outreach seminars.

Never heard of them, don't promote them as proof of anything.

The best way of knowing which is God's One True Religion, out of the plethora of so many True Religions (the seminars prove them all to be true) is, of course, to ask God. God would surely tell, and He cannot lie, and asking the Author is the only safe method of finding the truth.

How do you know this to be true?

Sounds good, right? There's just one problem. One tiny problem: the big * doesn't speak!

An unproven assumption on your part. There are lots of people who claim that god has spoken to them audibly (I don't suggest that this is true in most cases). What basis do you have, not knowing the truth, to say that He hasn't?

He used to speak to people in the past, but nowadays - nothing. His phone is disconnected, His fax machine is broken and His e-mail server is down. His FTP site (from which Muhammad downloaded the Qur'an) is now 404 Not Found. In short, there's no way of communicating with the Creator of the Universe, the Personal God.

You confuse "speaking" with communicating. Each person who comes to true faith in God has had a personal encounter with God, based on his self-revelation in creation and scripture.

Ask the theists about the Revelation of God: it is through a book of past account.

So what? The truth doesn't change with time does it? Do we deny that George Washington existed because we havent' talked to him? The record of an event conveys the same truth as the event itself. Jesus doesn't have to appear to everyone personally to prove the reality of his first appearance and the validity of his work.

Each of those religions claims to have the sole method of communication with God, and brands the communicative experiences of other religionists as incomplete at best, or counterfeit more usually.

This is not technically accurate. Christians validate the Jewish scriptures. Christianity is not a "new" religion. It flows from and is the fulfillment of God's redemptive covenant with Israel.
Islam, as the product of a single individual of dubious credentials, is another matter.

In the present there is no revelation, no communication. No-one sees God, no-one speaks to God. Revelation is history, or indefinite future. The present is godless to its very core.

Again, you are mistaken. God's revelation is dynamic and personal. There is no "new" revelation in the sense of new actions or scripture, but that is because Christ was the fulfillment of and embodyment (sp) of the promises contained in scripture.

Past revelation is an oxymoron. As Thomas Paine said in his Age of Reason, such things are not revelation at all, but merely hearsay.

Thomas Paine, as we all know, was an expert on such things (BTW, did he tell you this personally or are you relying on "past accounts" of his saying it? In fact, how do you know that he even existed; did you ever meet him, hmm).
However, he, like all atheists, presumed to declare what God must do in order to be God, thereby making himself god.

Revelation is only to the individual, on a singular, personal basis. God's revealing Himself through writing is like teaching someone to swim through an exchange of letters.

There's the danger of analogies. You assume that because God isn't making a "personal" appearance with each individual, he isn't communicating. Response to God's revelation has always been personal. Thousands experienced Jesus' miracles and teaching; only a handful believed.

If God does not deign to reveal Himself, to communicate with so many people who truly seek His contact, then He is as good as non-existent. May or may not exist in theory, but non-existent in practice.

When you begin with a false premise, you can't help but arrive at a false conclusion, i.e., "If God does not deign to reveal himself ...," BTW, I'm impressed with your use of the word deign. God does reveal himself through his creation and word.

A just and loving God would never communicate in such a sloppy way as the outreach seminars imply.

This may be true, I haven't attended one, but doesn't prove anyting.

He would not confine Himself to past books and subtle clues of natural and historical changes.

You and Tom Paine know how God would act. How did you gain such knowledge? Don't say "Common Sense," because that is a notoriously unreliable guide.

He would be personal, yes personal, and be open to those who seek Him.

The problem is, God is not "hidden" that he must be "sought," i.e., found. He has made himself known. Seeking God apart from his self-revelationis a sign of unbelief, i.e., rebellion.

 Dare I say God is so cruel as to hide Himself from the seekers? Better not blaspheme, therefore I shall say: irrelevant. No concern of present mankind.

You could say it, it would just be false, however you phrase it.

I do not know which religion is true, nor do I care; they may all have been true in the past, but the present is atheism.

That's curious. You don't know which religion is true yet you can make categorical statements regarding them all. Hubris?
Perhaps more reflection would be in order.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: theophilus ]

02-03-2002, 09:34 AM	#1
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Practical Atheism - Some Reasons Why In the name of Allah, the Fictional, the Non-Existent Practical Atheism - Some Reasons Why Let's talk about outreach seminars. Outreach seminars are concentrated days of lectures and presentations intended to prove the truth of a religion beyond doubt. I attended an Orthodox Jewish seminar when I was a theist, and I must say it was impressive. Skilled lecturers, many with imposing titles, laid out their well-planned arguments. The case for Orthodox Judaism was conclusive. As you well know, there are Christian outreach seminars too. These are just as good as the Jewish seminars in proving beyond all doubt the truth of the religion in question. I didn't attend a Christian outreach seminar, but from what I heard, you can't pass such a seminar without being saved, washed in the blood of Christ. And there are Islamic outreach seminars as well, especially in countries where infidelity is rampant, such as Turkey. I should probably give the Islamic seminars as much credit as the others, and it would not be rash to presume that those who attend those seminars get out as obedient servants of Allah, willing to kill and be killed in His name. In summary, it seems that the truth is open for everyone to seek, conveyed with great talent by the outreach seminars. Jewish, Christian and Islamic outreach seminars all lead to one definite conclusion: that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the One True Religion, even though they contradict one another. Well, I think you get the message: with well-planned showmanship and a selective display of facts, one can "prove" any religion to be The Truth (TM). So now the question is which is really the One True Religion. Which one is truly the one that the Creator of the Universe wants us to follow. We've got to find that out. The best way of knowing which is God's One True Religion, out of the plethora of so many True Religions (the seminars prove them all to be true) is, of course, to ask God. God would surely tell, and He cannot lie, and asking the Author is the only safe method of finding the truth. Sounds good, right? There's just one problem. One tiny problem: the big fucker doesn't speak! He used to speak to people in the past, but nowadays - nothing. His phone is disconnected, His fax machine is broken and His e-mail server is down. His FTP site (from which Muhammad downloaded the Qur'an) is now 404 Not Found. In short, there's no way of communicating with the Creator of the Universe, the Personal God. Ask the theists about the Revelation of God: it is through a book of past account. Each of those religions claims to have the sole method of communication with God, and brands the communicative experiences of other religionists as incomplete at best, or counterfeit more usually. Behold, the outreach seminars may leave you embarrassed, but remember their common conclusion: God communicated with humans in the past. As surely as all those seminars exclaim that the past had its instances of revelation, they exclaim that the present is practically atheistic. In the present there is no revelation, no communication. No-one sees God, no-one speaks to God. Revelation is history, or indefinite future. The present is godless to its very core. Past revelation is an oxymoron. As Thomas Paine said in his Age of Reason, such things are not revelation at all, but merely hearsay. Revelation is only to the individual, on a singular, personal basis. God's revealing Himself through writing is like teaching someone to swim through an exchange of letters. If God does not deign to reveal Himself, to communicate with so many people who truly seek His contact, then He is as good as non-existent. May or may not exist in theory, but non-existent in practice. Leave out that vain philosophy of arguments from infinity, design, morality and so forth for the existence of God, which has but recreational value; what have you in practice? Nothing. No-one sees God, no-one speaks to God. Seek God, search for Him for a lifetime, and if you find something, what will you find? That He does not exist. He spoke in the past, and gave contrary messages, such worthless crumbs of divine communication which bear a strong smell of human fiction. A just and loving God would never communicate in such a sloppy way as the outreach seminars imply. He would not confine Himself to past books and subtle clues of natural and historical changes. He would be personal, yes personal, and be open to those who seek Him. Dare I say God is so cruel as to hide Himself from the seekers? Better not blaspheme, therefore I shall say: irrelevant. No concern of present mankind. I do not know which religion is true, nor do I care; they may all have been true in the past, but the present is atheism.

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02-03-2002, 11:49 PM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I agree about some supposed god who has gone into hiding after issuing a revelation to only a tiny subset of humanity. A much more efficient approach would be to implant a revelation into everybody's consciousness. That way, everybody will be aware of it without any need for interpretation or transmission, and there will be no possibility of people being misled by others' transmission or translation errors or misunderstandings or misrepresentations. I'm a computer programmer, meaning that I'm something of a creator, and I don't let my creations misbehave if I can reasonably avoid doing so. I make that qualification because I'm far from being either omnipotent or omniscient, and I'm not going to claim that I'm perfectly benevolent.

02-04-2002, 10:17 AM	#5
chickensoupforthebowl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 27	"In short, there's no way of communicating with the Creator of the Universe, the Personal God." -They call it "prayer". Ever hear of it?

02-04-2002, 10:32 AM	#7
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> LOL, Kally!

02-04-2002, 10:37 AM	#8
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Dev, I think you're quite right. It's particularly curious that god did all his/her/its communicating and revealing in the age before the advent of mass communications and (if we're just talking the Abrahamic religions here) confined the direct revelation to a particular region of the world. Seems to have missed China, which had a well-developed civilisation at the time.

02-04-2002, 01:27 PM	#9
zamboniavenger Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 342	Here, let me get you guys god's phone number...damn...I could of sworn I put it by my keys...

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