Shake

Amergin,
I would hope that all of us here consider Phelps to be at best, a very bigoted, hateful man. However, I think you are missing the point of the o.p. (LG, correct me if I'm wrong) No one is trying to blame Xians for Phelps any more than one should try to blame atheists for the actions of Stalin, Mao, etc. What the o.p. expressed was surprise that there was no outrage from the Xian community about this bigoted, racist person who is trying to hijack their religion for his hateful purposes. This frustration is similar to what a lot of Americans felt after 9/11 when there was (apparently) no strong statement from Muslim Americans condemning the attacks. If yours is a religion of love and peace (I believe both Xianity and Islam claim to be) and someone is using your beliefs and holy books to carry out acts of despicable evil and hatred, you should be outraged, and the world should know about it! You should denounce the evildoers for distorting your message of peace and using it to bring violence into the world. Allowing evil to continue unchecked is what killed millions in WWII. Hitler was continously appeased until he could go no further without spilling blood.

In summary, I agree that his major agenda is not religion. But religion (Xianity in this case), should at least show some concern that their message is being perverted for such overt hate and violence. Even if you don't approve of homosexuality, surely you don't believe violence is the only way to change things!?! Maybe he needs some help. Shouldn't some other good Xians reach out to him to help him?

LiberatedGoddess

Shake,
You hit the nail on the head.
We all agree Phelps is a hateful man.
No one is blaming Christians for Phelps' behavior.

As you said, Shake, I am expressing surprise that there is no outrage from the Christian community regarding Phelps (and anyone of his kind - Falwell, Roberson, etc.)

As you said:
If yours is a religion of love and peace and someone is using your beliefs and holy books to carry out acts of despicable evil and hatred, you should be outraged, and the world should know about it! You should denounce the evildoers for distorting your message of peace and using it to bring violence into the world.

And

Religion should at least show some concern that their message is being perverted for such overt hate and violence.

I have yet to see a Christian “get it” on www.apologetics.com site.

I have to speak up even though they don't listen.
When the Falwells of this world blame 9/11 on feminist, pagans, pro-choicer, homosexuals and the Christian community doesn't pull a major $$$ plug from the 700 Club . . . that's fucked!
That they don't stand at every pulpit across the nation and say, "NO! We will not stand for this crap. Don't listen to it and if anyone you know outside the church has been offended by Falwell, let them know that is one narrow minded man who is an imbecile. And let them know that we will do everything in our financial powers to make sure fanatics like that don’t get any backing from Christian communities."

Buffman

Shake & L.G.

Hear! Hear!

livius drusus

That's James Michener, btw.

Ab_Normal

Some religious leaders do speak out against hate. A local example is Bill Wassmuth, who died last August. He led the fight against the Aryan Nations in North Idaho, and was a Catholic priest when he first started speaking out against racism. He later left the priesthood and married.

Buffman

I just wish these folks could put on some additional popular support muscle.

http://www.interfaithalliance.org/about-us/index.htm

ybnormal

Originally posted by Amergin
I consider Phelps to be an abomination, a very evil madman. But are we to blame all Christians for him? No.

I do indeed blame ALL xians who are not out publicly denouncing/picketing Phelps, exactly like he denounces/pickets those who he claims are evil. An anonymous xian on the Internet who tries to distance himself from a Phelps, for obvious reasons, means little to me.

Let them publicly denounce Phelps in full view of ALL their fellow xians, and take the same heat from fellow xians that Phelps takes from YOU, then I'll give them some credit.

To do otherwise is to GIVE ALL anonymous xians an easy out that I don't KNOW they deserve, and I refuse to aid an organized group who is committed to eliminate me by eliminating my religious freedom.

That's called aiding the enemy... an enemy who picked ME... I did not pick them for an enemy. I just want to be left alone by the organization that xians so willingly identify with, are so proud to be a member of, and support with their hard earned money.


I don't want to be blamed for sharing non-belief with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. That would be unfair. I should not be blamed for communists.

Then don't allow xians to twist that upon your good name and personal integrity. When have you ever publicly self-identified with any of those men or self-identified with the ideas they stood for? Until you do that, it ain't the same as calling yourself a "Christian".

Xians pull the same crap by labeling Hitler an Atheist, for the express purpose of linking YOU to HIM while simultaneously denying that their fellow xians directly aided HIS cause. What was it the pope finally apologized for anyway?

Christians who say, "I am a Christian" are just that... A "Christian", by CHOICE. They have self-identified with anyone else who calls himself a "Christian". It ain't my job to sort them out, or GIVE them an easy out.

If you look at the simplicity of all this, xians are doing ALL the identifying... and ALL the labeling... they are being allowed to label themselves as "good" xians AND being allowed to label US as "evil" Atheists.

Atheism is NOT an organized group with self-identified members who pay dues AND have a strategic PLAN to eliminate ALL xians.

Atheists could stop playing into these strategic xian "labeling" war games.

Bree

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Fred Phelps is doing nothing wrong. He is merely being a True Christian - one who follows what the Bible says, 100%. None of this "oh, well, you are reading this out of context" or "this interpretation is incorrect" or "you realise that the word 'homosexual' wasn't used until the 19th century" or "Sodom/Gomorrah is really about hospitality" - to me, that's all bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination to God and is worthy of death. Eat it. If you don't like it, well, maybe you need to take a second look at what God really believes in.

Unforgiven Too

Here is something my father is fond of saying:

"The Romans might march in and cut off your head, but at least they didn't pretend they were doing you a favor."

Someone once mentioned that, while the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination worthy of death, it lists many other things also worthy of death and on no higher or lower priority than homosexuality. Since hardly any of these have the same emotional discomfot level as homosexuality, you never see any xians starting hate-clubs over them. I think it might have been someone on these forums, in fact.

Which just lends even more credibility to the whole theory of taking ownership of God, the way people create their gods in their own image, using "divine right" to justify what they like and condemn what they hate.

I find it infuriating too when they distance themselves that way in a small conversation while avoiding any public diapproval. I also find it frightening to hear a lib mod xian like my mom mirroring some fundie remarks and arguements (such as the idea that if we had kids in public school praying to Christ, teen pregnancy and gun violence would magically disappear, that all that only happened because God was taken out of our schools, and the majority has the right to use the government to endorse their religion because majority rules--like talking to a brick wall). They may be a minority, but they are well-funded and regimented, and it seems to me they pull the strings of the more abundant lib mod xians a bit more than some care to admit. Their silence can be regarded as somewhat suspicious by non-xians, I wonder why they dont' seem to realize this.

As far as I'm concerned, there is something wrong if the guy's supposed to be an american. (don't know as much about other countries rules and foundations) You're not allowed to kill other people, even if your 'god' says to, and you're not allowed to create religious laws (though it has happened, fundies don't seem to mind speaking for God, why shouldn't they assume they can tell us what the founding fathers really thought).

I don't know what they're thinking. I have my little New Age tendencies, and the McLaine types really create a loopy image of New Agers, but if she was running around threatening people, attempting unconstitutional legistlation, or encouraging violence and hatred in the name of some new age ideal or what have you I would have to say something. We're not just talking about a few harmless nuts who "talk to Jesus" while waiting in line at the grocer's, we're talking about some truly dangerous maniacs.

seebs

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. There's nothing in the Bible that's particularly clearly about homosexuality, and frankly, I am as of yet unconvinced there's anything on the issue at all; all of the stuff people like to cite is a pretty pathetic match for homosexuality, but fits other things pretty well.

On the one hand, I think Christians need to be more aggressive in opposing hatred among other Christians. On the other hand, I think all people everywhere would rather stay home and ignore evil than go out and do something about it, so I don't see it as a very serious condemnation of Christianity that Christians, like everyone else, are too lazy to oppose evil, especially when it's a fairly small scale thing. Phelps, no matter how evil he is, is only affecting a very small number of people; there are arguably more important things to fight.

At the same time, if I got wind of him coming to my town, you bet I'd try to organize a counter-protest.