Brian Lindsey

Greetings to all,

I'm a new poster, but have been lurking for a while. Was watching the recent NT manuscript thread and had a question.

Having little familarity with anything other than the NT, where can I find a break down of the manuscript evidence for manuscripts other than the NT? I've seen the standard Josh McDowell comparision but it doesn't really give the details and I suspect the examples given were used to cast the argument in its' most favorable light. So can any help me out?

This doesn't have to be limited to Greek manuscripts. I'm also interested in how to compare other religious documents, different civilizations.

Thanks in advance.

Vorkosigan

A g9od start would be vol 5, book 1, of Needham's Science and Civilization in China, which gives an overview of manuscripts and printing and paper in Chinese history. What do you mean by manuscript? The Buddhists and Taoists both carved their scriptures in stone several times, and of course ancient Chinese writing was on little slats of bamboo, very durable.

Broadly speaking, the manuscript evidence for China is so copious as to brook no comparison with Europe.

Vorkosigan

Steven Carr

<a href="http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli1.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/reli2.htm</a>

or 'The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture'
by Bart Ehrmann

Haran

Steven, that's a rather one-sided set of information there, don't you think? Besides, I don't think this is the information the original post asked for.

As for comparisons, doesn't McDowell list some books to support his comparisons. In my copy of his work, he lists several well-known scholars. Anyway, you can find some information in some of the books that were mentioned on the NT MSS thread.

Here are a few sources from Metzger's Text of the New Testament:

For a list of papyri of the Iliad, see H.J. Mette, 'Neue Homer-Papyri', Revue de philologie, xxix (1955), pp. 193-9, 202-4, and Lustrum, i (1956), p.9, Anm. i; for a list of uncial and miniscule manuscripts, see T.W. Allen, Homeri Ilias, vol. i (Oxford, 1931).

For a list of papyri of Euripides, see Roger A. Pack, The Greek and Latin Literary Texts from Greco-Roman Egypt (Ann Arbor, 1952), pp. 23ff; for a list of the Byzantine manuscripts, see Alexander Turyn, The Byzantine Manuscript Tradition of the Tragedies of Euripides (= Illinois Studies in Language and Literature, vol. xlv; Urbana, 1957).

If you are desiring actual statistics, then the ones in the works mentioned on the NT MSS thread are the only statistics that I, myself, know much about.

As far as ancient Chinese MSS, I'd be interested to find out more. Several reputable scholars have said that the witnesses to the NT are more abundant than for any other ancient document.

If you do some research, come back and let us know what you find.

Haran

Brian Lindsey

Let me clarify my request. The references that Harna gave about are along the lines, although I was hoping for something more recent. The previous MSS only listed Metzger and Aland's books that I'm aware of. I have a copy of Metzger's Corruption on order so I'll check it out.

Yes, I'll take any info about the origin and transmission of other religious documents. I guess what I'm aiming for is a breakdown of manuscript (or otherwise) evidence for ancient documents similiar to what is done for the NT. Not having much familarity with the field, I was hoping some of y'all might know of some webpages that already cover this territory.

Fastfalcon

Here are some quick quotes from the NT:
"I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Mageth

Warning: a troll alert is in effect until further notice!

FF: Many people here know the bible at least as well (and some know it better) than you.

Oh, and take off the rainbow afro wig. This isn't an NFL game. If you want to preach, go to the Rants, Raves and Preaching forum.

Vorkosigan

Yes, I'll take any info about the origin and transmission of other religious documents. I guess what I'm aiming for is a breakdown of manuscript (or otherwise) evidence for ancient documents similiar to what is done for the NT. Not having much familarity with the field, I was hoping some of y'all might know of some webpages that already cover this territory.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Haran and Brian:

I know of several databases on the net:

You might want to check out the <a href="http://www.chant.org/www/chantmain.htm" target="_blank">Chant --Chinese Ancient Texts</a> database on the net. However it is mostly in Chinese, except for the News section.

<a href="http://www.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/igcs/igphil.htm" target="_blank">A database of databses</a>

The most useful for you is probably this site:
<a href="http://humanities.uchicago.edu/depts/easian/earlychina/research_resources/databases/early_chinese_manuscripts/" target="_blank">Database of Ancient Chinese Manuscripts</a>

There are many pages; it is simply a giant catalog of certain ancient Chinese manuscripts and other texts. Here is a typical entry:

Serial Number: 029
Site: III.26 Hunan, Changsha shi, Zidanku (ammunition dump), tomb no. 1
(73ChangziM1, of a c. 40 year old man, a shidafu of the 1st rank?;
disturbed)
Report: Wenwu 1974,2
Discovery date: 1973.05
Period: -375 to -270?: Middle to late Warring States Chu (dated through stylistic comparison)
Whereabouts: Metropolitan Museum, New York
Distribution:
Total pieces: 1
Total graphs: 904

The Chinese also put their various religious corpii (corpuses?) on stone many times. The Confucian classics were inscribed seven times, the first around 180, and the last 1791-94. The Buddhists also did this a couple of times, inscribing four million characters on 7,000 stone steles in a four hundred year effort beginning in 605. As did the Taoists, also beginning in the seventh century. Individual emperors also did that, inscribing steles with the accomplishments of their reign. The religious texts were inscribed to prevent corruption in transmission.

Needham, writing in 1985, noted:

• "Since the end of the 19th century, no fewer than 40,000 tablets of bamboo and wood have bee unearthed from various locations in China. The cover a span of almost 1000 years of Chinese history."

This is very different from the West, where the ancient manuscripts were transmitted, and in many cases we have a medieval copy, as with Tacitus, of a manuscript almost a thousand years old. Imagine finding the DSS or Oxyrhynchus not once but every time you cracked open a Chinese tomb.

Consider this entry from the database:

• Serial Number: 002
  Site: I.02 Henan, Wenxian, Wude zhen, Xizhangji, 124 sacrificial pits
  Report: Wenwu1983,3
  Discovery date: 1930, 1935, 1942, 1980-1982
  Period: -497: Late Springs and Autumns Jin (many pieces dated to 16th January -497)
  Whereabouts: Henan Provincial Institute of Cultural Artefacts, Zhengzhou; Qinyang mengshu: Archaeological Institute of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Beijing
  Distribution:
  Total pieces: 10,000
  Total graphs: 300,000

Note that the actual day of inscription is known for many of the pieces. These would mostly be divination and funerary items, probably inscribed on shells, bamboo, ceramics and wood.

I haven't even begun to discuss the thousands of finds of inscriptions on bronze, sometimes as long as chapters on books, or the quality of the finds. For example, the 20,000 tablets uncovered at Chuyen contain 75 documents in the original format, all complete or near complete. A Chin tomb at Mawangtui yielded 1100 bamboo tablets, all legal documents. The Western Han tomb at Lin-i gave up 4490 documents on military classics. There's simply nothing like it in the West.

Here's a manuscript entry from the database:

As for later attestation and number of manuscripts, there's simply no comparison. For example, of the several dozen sutras, charms and portraits printed in Hangchow in the tenth century by the monk Yen-shou, 400,000 copies are known to us. I could list more, but don't see the point. Suffice to say that volume printing was a hallmark of medieval China.

In sum, McDowell's claims on attestation and age are pure ethnocentricity, as far as China is concerned. For any particular superlative (most, earliest, more precisely dated, broadest set of topics, most copies of a single document) ancient China is by far the leader.

Vorkosigan

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>