Zippy

If God gave me my moral and ethical system, then why is my moral and ethical system so sorely at odds with those held by the God of the bible?

Paul

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Zippy ]</p>

thefugitivesaint

goody2shoes:

Your condescending manner is irritating and typical of those who propose humble positions possessing a self-righteous undertone.

First, we have this assertion, that:

which basically and flatly states that atheists, regardless of what they may proclaim, know that some type of "creator" exists but simply and willfully deny this so-called "fact."

Let us ignore the circular reasoning of such a loaded proposition. Let us ignore that it begs the very question by assuming its own correctness. But, let us not overlook the overbearing arrogance of such a statement especially since the one asserting such a statement is already convinced that their position is, in fact, true.

This is the standard default position of many a theist if i may make such a generalization based on my life experience. Challenge this position and you'll recieve nothing but the poorest in logic or a retreat into the "argument of faith." Quickly, the above assertion of certainty is rebuffed by the need to address "faith" but "faith" is needed exactly because such certainty can never truly be had. If one had proof one would not need the leap of "faith."

Then we have these little gems:

So, all of my years of comparative religious and mythology studies, my countless visits to synagogues, mosques, temples, churchs, visits to mullahs, rabbis, priests, etc. were all just a waste of time simply because i never really wanted to "find God" as you say, in your own smug manner (and, YES, such a statement is quite smug in its tone and implication).

I was never lazy in my quest and thirst to know everything and i have never known a moments peace in carrying out this endeavour. But, i have a critical and questioning mind that does not accept ready made answers nor does it accept easy solutions (and nothing is sacred to a thinking mind).

When my questions could not be answered in Catholic school, by my teachers, concerning the bible, questions that seemed self-evident and begging to be asked, when they told me to be quiet and to just accept what i was being told, i learned skepticism and i learned that those in positions of authority did not have all the answers; that they certainly did not like being challenged.

When i was kicked out of Catholic school in 4th grade for, and i do not lie, "subversion", "stubborness", and "being generally disruptive in class" (i.e. asking to many pointed questions) i learned that i did not belong among certain people or that i was simply different than they were. Not better, not superior, not more enlightened..just different.

I learned that "looking for God" meant a myriad of things to different people. I discovered that even "God" was interpreted to mean various things depending on who it was you asked. I learned that most who adhere to a chosen religion/practice/faith rarely questioned or examined their chosen proclivity. And, i learned none of them liked it when you questioned or examined their chosen proclivity for yourself.

Rarely have i ever claimed that i was self-important and my urge, my need to find some comfort in the very fact of my being was driven by my knowledge of lifes precarious position in this universe (as far as we have knowledge of said universe). I found some great religious teachers and though i embraced many of their ideas i never found their "spiritual" messages reflected inside of myself; their "faiths" never reverberated any genuine emotion in the depths of who i am. I understood them and i respected them but i never found them to be true to what i know of life. Your arrogance in proclaiming that the "self-important" will never "discover" god says very little of anything save to reveal your own "self-important" stance and "all-knowing" position. I charge YOU with the very thing you claim to denounce. People like you are what give heart-felt theists a bad name.

And, then to go on later to say:

is ridiculous since it is rife with hypocrisy. Did you not proclaim, to repeat your own words once again for your own edification, that an "atheist is simply a person who does not want to admit that there is a creator of the universe...?

You claim certainty (something which is entirely a subjective attribute of belief) while telling another, surely to put them in their "self-important" place, to withhold their own judgement, to remain, in a sense, 'provisional.' But, i see no need to have such a stance when evidence of your so-called "creator" has had thousands of years to provide itself available to the rest of us who have sought its existence in vain. Even those such as yourself, so sure you are in your mind, have yet to silence all the voices who raise their objections to your self-proclaimed "certainties."

dannyK asked a simple question and you plainly insulted him with your posts. No overt insults but subtle ones that did nothing but reaffirm your own position in the face of those who seek for one or who simply live without.

My atheism is not a denial, which would be an affirmation of a belief but simply remains an absence, a lack of any particular belief.

Before you come in here with your inflated sense of understanding and belittling mannerisms you would do well to educate yourself with the world around you. Start with this simple fact people like you seem to neglect in noticing: Not everyone shares your beliefs.

I am more than grateful for this everyday i get to breath and experience the wonder of being. Fuck you very much.
-theSaint

goody2shoes

Hello Saint,

Sorry to have offended you so deeply. I admit to having sent an intentionally provocative post --- hoping for some discussion. The reason for such a post is because most of what I see on the infidels is of a similar nature. If I do not agree the infidels, then I am a sorry case indeed -- on these posts.

There are some things of which I can be certain only because of my own personal experience. I could not convince you that I saw a rattlesnake in my back yard if you firmly believed that there no creatures around here. So I would state it as knowledge and you could then insult me all that you wish.

My only experiences with people are:

1.) Those who truly search for a sustained period of time and ultimately do discover God

2.) Those who make up their minds without so doing.

But there could be others outside of my experience with a different history.

I see that you claim that you are a person who has searched and has not found and have therefore concluded that there is no God, because otherwise God would have talked to you long ago. If it were not for your last sentence, I might take your "search" seriously and as someone who wished discuss issues. However, you appear to be just another closed mind. Wear it in good faith.

Goody.

goody2shoes

Hello Paul,

I don't think that I said God=Bible.

But what moral system do you have that disagrees with the Bible? Let's take Jesus' statement that the law with respect to others may be summarized as "love thy neighbor as thyself".

Goody

Tertulian

Where do I start? I'm sure these are some of the values that I do not hold:
Slavery (OT); <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/rape.html" target="_blank">rape</a>(OT); murder (sodom and gamorrah); torture (hell).

Since these 'values' are in the bible, are they held by all Christians? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tertulian ]</p>

Synaesthesia

There are two kinds of people. Those who categorize humans into two non-mututally-exclusive groups and those who don't.

Now if I was truly searching for God, really and honestly searching my whole life, I would likely find a God that I liked. Believe you me, I actually searched for GOD for a long time, thought I had him for most of it.

However, there are those who are truly and honestly search for the truth their whole life. Not all of this category find it in God, even though they search and never totally make up their mind.

Not everyone who seeks finds. We are not gained admittance to God's doors at which we knock. Do not think we have given up our search if we go through the doors that are opened, to pursue other folly and wisdom.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

dannyk

Thankyou all for your replys. I have found them extremely helpful , and I am relishing the prospect of coming to grips with a lot of the ideas . See you around

goody2shoes

Thanks for your comments. It would have been interesting to know the details.

Best,

Goody

Perchance

Goody:

Would you count someone as having made up her mind who has decided that there is probably no god (or divine force of any kind), thinks that she retains an open enough mind to be convinced by some kind of logical argument if one ever manifested, but in the meantime lives her life without religion?

I think this describes me pretty well.

-Perchance.

goody2shoes

Hello Perchance,

As I said in another post, I was intentionally provocative - and that was probably unjustified.

Let's face it, anyone searching for truth is confronted with the same problems that humans have faced for centuries. If there were clear cut answers then we could all go buy the book that reveals them and that would be the end of it.(That is true whether a atheist, a theist, a Christian or whatever.) I happen to be a Christian - but one with a somewhat "out of the box" outlook on things. Like you, I am willing to hear new ideas (not junk) either way.

I do think that God exists and is willing to make himself (herself) known to those who seek. From what I have observed, there is no one single "recipe" - but rather an individualized response.

I could be wrong of course. The Saint and synesthesia think so.

Goody