Grad Student Humanist

Because I haven't read the Book of Revelations? Please. I've read the OT and the Gospels. I won't read Paul because his neurotic rantings are a waste of time. There are far too many books of real quality in the world to waste any more time with the Bible.

So here's one back at you: Have you read the Popol Vuh? If not, how can you take an educated stance against the existence of the Mayan gods?

Badfish

Easy, they haven't stood the test of time, and have not demonstrated Sovereignity by being able to convey the message worldwide.

Walross

Hello Badfish,

you wrote:

I'm curious as to why Satan/Lucifer/Beelzebub/Maat/Pan...etc rebelled against god. Simply the fact that he thought he was more powerful is insuficient... I may think I am more powerful than the Prime Minister of my country - it does not necessarily follow that I will rebel against him. Lucifer must have at least thought he had a good reason. What do you suppose it was?

I also have to comment on your answer to Grad Student Humanist:

You do of course realize that this is just a thinly disguised Argument From Popularity, right? You do know that it is a logical fallacy, right? Just checking. I'm enjoying this thread. Regards,

Walross

KnightWhoSaysNi

So much for an "omnibenevolent" god. This is one of the things that turned me off from conservative Christianity. The doctrine that prescribles eternal torture of all non-Christians means that you need to worship a cruel vindictive 'monster god.' It means you have to accept that 6 million Jew died in the Holocaust to go from one concentration camp to another (they went through hell and went to hell).

But it shouldn't be too bad. I'll get to swim in the lake with the likes of Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, and Mahatma Gandhi. Badfish will get to share company with Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell.

Korihor (formerly, 'Nightshade')

Badfish

God hasn't administered his judgement against Satan yet.

Logically anytime a being is created with freewill, that freewilled being is free to have his own thoughts, it would go against freewill and God's plan for freewill to conform Satan or anything to a "predisposition".

Satan only thought he was more powerful, but obviously he wasn't.

Why is that insufficient? Are not wars waged because of power struggles? Does man's quest for power and world domination not stem from the fact that they believe themselves powerful enough to conquer? Apparently Satan thought he was more powerful.

TheUnbeliever

The point, badfish, is that we don't understand why God would make Satan if he knew what was going to happen ahead of time. The possibilities are:

1.) God knows everything, therefore he knew that Satan would go bad but was powerless to stop it.
2.) God knows everything and is all-powerful, therefore he knew that Satan would go bad and he intentionally created him. God's just a sadistic psychopath, however, and treats the universe like an ant farm; Satan is there to "spice things up."
3.) God is not all-knowing and had no idea beforehand that Satan would rebel.

And "free will" is two words.

Badfish

The point is that God created beings out of love, so if he preconformed everything to his wants then he would just have robots. Yes God can foreknow, but we are not at liberty to assume how he uses foreknowledge.

Freewill can be used as an adjective or a noun.

TheUnbeliever

Your post makes no sense. The three possibilities I've provided for you are, as far as I can tell, the only three that fit the Christian concept of "God." You'll have to choose one of them.

And "free" is an adjective that modifies the noun "will." The phrase "free will" is two words, not one.

Badfish

I don't have to choose one of them because no one knows the mind of God.

I would have to say that his proclaimation to be a jealous and emotional God, could be evidence that he chose not to foresee based on his seeking love from freewilled creations.

And we can use freewill as one word. Many scholars do, so I will use it as one word when speaking of God.

Grad Student Humanist

Right, so in other words, you're ignorant of the Popol Vuh and cannot make an educated decision regarding the existence of the Mayan gods. May they have mercy on you.

In addition, the popularity of Xtianity is a testament to the church's brainwashing of children and threats of hellfire for non-believers. Not to mention the way all of those good Xtians slaughtered the people who believed in the Mayan gods, and the Aztec gods, and the Native American gods, and the African gods, etc.

Finally, the popularity of Xtianity has no bearing on the veracity of the religion. American Idol and the Fox News channel are also very popular, and they're both crap, much like Xtianity.