Stephen T-B

You are to be commended for your honesty. Emotional.
I wish Christians in general could come as clean, and stop rationalising their beliefs with specious justifications.

Believe what you need to believe; don't believe what you don't need to believe: that's a freedom worth defending..

scumble

I'm not Richard Dawkins. He may think science has a message, I don't necessarily agree. Not at the moment, anyway.

I know where you're coming from, but science doesn't have to clash with faith. As it is, you're talking about a time when most people's lives were pretty unhealthy, hard and short.
We've found out that, intrinsically, the universe has no purpose, but I don't think that need worry humans.
I tend to think evolution does offer some kind of purpose on earth. Humans are moving forward, slowly. Even then, I think enjoying the beauty of organic life amidst purposelessness is a great thing in itself.

Still, I wish more people with some sort a faith were like you. Stephen is quite correct.

Jamie_L

Didn't read this whole thread, but here's my thought:

Of course belief in God can have a dramatic effect on people. It's a dramatic belief. It defines or redefines reality.

On the flip side: my acceptance of non-belief had a dramatic effect on me. I've been much happier, more content, the world makes more sense, I have a greater sense of self-worth, and so on. I've found a support network here of like-minded people with whom to associate.

I don't think belief in God is a unique world-view when it comes to providing dramatic changes to one's life and outlook.

Jamie

emotional

But it does. When atheists rebut theistic arguments, what counter-evidence do they bring? Science! Especially evolution, if consistently accepted, makes it impossible to believe in a god who intervenes in the lives of people. And when I am presented with the Christian Baspel (bad news), I counter it by saying evolution means Adam and Eve never existed. So it's quite disingenious to say science and faith don't clash.

The whole Abrahamic system is centred around the claim that Earth is special, and that bipedal hominids are special. Those claims had support in the Middle Ages, when geocentrism and special creationism reigned supreme, but now they're unsupported. Whoever wishes to have faith today does so without scientific support - that is, in spite of, and not because of, science.



But much more meaningful, and with an afterlife to look forward to! That's an important difference. Given the choice between a long, rootless life and a short, meaningful life, I know exactly which I prefer.



I still believe the universe as a whole has a purpose, and so do our lives. I believe evolution - spiritual as well as physical - is the purpose of life. Evolution is the will of God from the beginning of creation.

scumble

But which faith are you referring to? Faith in obviously false assertions like the earth not being at the centre of the universe, and faith in entities who are outside of our knowledge are different things. Atheists often appeal to science, but so do thiests. Whether you have faith or not is independent of the arguments. Even theologians might agree when they talk about a "leap of faith". Our own BGiC was talking about it in another thread.

You tend to make the earth sound worthless. A life of ignorance, hard work and disease hardly disposes one to appreciate God's masterpiece. And you shouldn't neglect the fact of religious persecution.

You see, you wouldn't have been able to form this belief in the middle ages.
You seem to be trapped in a kind of contradiction. On the one hand, you seem to be in favour of ignorance so you don't have to think about your own faith, because it's "under attack" by science, and then you appear to have a faith that accepts scientific development as revealing God's work.
I'm not opposed to your faith, just that you seem to making human endeavour since the middle ages appear worthless, including evolution, increased peace and prosperity for many people, increased religious tolerance, and so on.

Waning Moon Conrad

Belief in itself is a powerful motivator. Getting up and doing things because you believe in something doesn't necessarily make the thing you believe in real.

The Nazis had some powerful beliefs which prompted them to use Cyclon B in what they believed to be a correct and appropriate manner. Does this mean that blond, blue-eyed white people really are intrinsically, genetically superior to all others?

pmurray

Belif makes all sorts of difference - people live their lives by their beliefs, be they right or wrong.

Whispers

Increased peace? In what sense do you mean this? Increased prosperity?????????For the majority?

DMB

In terms of material life, human beings are on average enjoying increased prosperity and better health, as evidenced by the huge increase in life expectation. Even though we have huge numbers of people living in poverty, the proportion has gone down.

Whispers

Okay, I will accept this, if you can provide verifiable facts and figures to back up these claims.

1) human beings are on average enjoying increased prosperity

2) better health

3) Even though we have huge numbers of people living in poverty, the proportion has gone down.

4) increased peace for many people, increased religious tolerance

Thanks...