Eikonoklast

Well, let's indulge in fantasy for a moment. Afterall, I thought we were talking about libertarianism anyway. I know there is no libertarian society. I just want to see if its ideas are internally sound. I don't see why capitalism has to co-exist with slavery now, even given it's past. Owning people is against the law. Problem solved. What's the problem now? This is like springing Original Sin on me. I have nothing to do with those people, nor was the government at the time upholding a libertarian policy by allowing slavery.

Dr. Retard

Hold your horses, "no problem" with slavery? Come on.

Zar

You can't very well own slaves and claim to have a serious problem with slavery. I mean you can claim it, but is anyone obliged to take you seriously?

But although capitalism has no inherent problem with slavery (it has to be outlawed in order not to exist) it is incorrect to say that a 500 year old phenomenon (I hate to say principle, since people didn't even know it was "capitalism" until Karl Marx called it that) is the genesis of slavery. I mean, read the Bible. There's plenty of slavery in there.

Dr. Retard

As for Jefferson, he worked on drafting up an emancipation plan, and made not a few clear statements as to his negative moral opinion of slavery. I don't know what counts as a "serious problem", though.

As for the general claim, first, people are often 'of two minds'. One could have a serious problem with slavery, all the while owning slaves, and consequently, hating yourself. Second, people often have rationalizations as to why their behavior is consistent with their moral opinions. This is especially true when the wealth of your family is all tied up in slaves. You might also tell yourself that the slaves would be even worse off, if they weren't under the care of such a humane master as yourself. Whether or not these rationalizations are reasonable, people make them. In which case, you can have a serious problem with slavery and yet own slaves. I suspect a lot of people in those days were like this, hating themselves or accepting rationalizations.

Of course, this threatens to derail the thread.

Loren Pechtel

I think you have a bit of a counting problem here. They total up 97 million. To me "hundereds of" means at least 200.

AtomSmasher

From the article:

That is just for those specific countries, he goes on to include others which would exceed 100 million and his statistics don't include a lot of other regimes, such as Iraq and Cuba, who have murdered none-to-few political dissidents as well.

I might be exaggerating with "hundreds of millions" but 100 to 200 million is a reasonable estimate.

Derec

Not any more than other economical systems.

Quote:

Show me one concrete proposal that libs have come up with to help fight racism.

Personal and economical liberty for all.

Quote:

Eliminating affirmative action is not fighting racism.

Au contraire, my red friend.

Discriminating against some ethnic and racial groups in favor of others is racist. So eliminating affirmative action is very much fighting racism.

UMoC

Loren Pechtel

He listed all the big ones. I'd accept that the final answer is in the low 100's but unless he's way off target it doesn't approach 200 million.

RED DAVE

From UglyManOnCampus:

1) You admit that capitalism involves racism.

2) You missed my point that libertarians, by supporting capitalism, support racism.

1) You will have to do a little better than a vague platitude like that. I, as a socialist, could completely agree with that statement and come to completely opposite conclusions,m i.e., the end of capitalism.

2) In the absence of concrete, short- and long-term solutions to racism, libertarians must bear the accusation of collusion with it.

1) Admittedly, affirmative action, in an economy that is being strangled by right wing tax cuts and war expenses, is a challenge. However, the elimination of affirmative action means the perpetuation of White racism. The Bushes of the world will still go to Yale.

RED DAVE

AtomSmasher

We just had a very thorough argument about the relationship of capitalism to racism, there is none. There is no more relationship between capitalism and racism then there is between Shintoism and racism. I can cut and paste some previous statements or you can make use of the scroll feature.

Ludicrous. Following that logic: In the absence of concrete, short- and long-term solutions to racism, librarians must bear the accusation of collusion with it.

You are so obsessed with promoting your own political philosophy that you are willing to practice intellectual deceit to achieve it? I suppose associating contrary political/economic systems with racism is the only tactic left because history will not support you.

Red Herring.