Answerer

Well, according to QM, God, after determined the actual momentum of a particle is incapable of measuring the precise position of the particle at the same time no matter how much effort and power He used. So much for the omnipotence of the One.

Corey Hammer

Actually, I like the hypothetical:

Can God create an object that he cannot move?

Either way, it shows that God cannot be omnipotent.

beausoleil

Equally, God - if he exists - can't create something which is both completely yellow and completely red. But the problem is in our language not in his powers. Omnipotence in this sense might be seen as the ability to create something with any wave function.

Answerer

Well, are you trying to say that the principle of uncertainity is wrong? If so, please provide some evidences(scientifical)for those problems with our 'language'. Anyway, Einstein is trying to do the same thing that you are talking about but he seem to have failed. By the way, I'm talking about power to measure some quantities, not create.

beausoleil

No, I'm saying that the principle of uncertainty reflects problems with applying the concepts 'momentum' and 'position' simultaneously. It's not a measurement problem - a particle actually never has a uniquely defined momentum and position at the same time to know. It seems to me it is a bit like saying God (or anyone) doesn't know the precise wavelength of white light. It's not evidence of fallability because 'the precise wavelength of white light' is a null concept.

Answerer

Well, it seems that we have agreed that nature is randomnly behaved at quantum level and that God can't know everything at the same time and is incapable of giving a definite value to both quantities at the same time,so much for omnipotence( the ability to do anything).
Furthermore, you, yourself, have shown us the fact that not even God could control the randomness in nature.

beausoleil

Why be quantum? God can't create a musical instrument that sounds pink either - does that strike you as evidence of non-omnipotence?

The point I'm making is that pink isn't a property of sounds, and having a definite value of position and momentum isn't a property of particles. You can only frame the question because our language is an approximation deduced from macroscopic things with doubtful application at the quantum level.

Answerer

Well, we are not talking about super ailens or entity but a being who will do anything (omnipotent) and I really mean anything(unless you think omnipotence has other meanings). If God can't create a pink instrument or change the property of particle, he is no God to me but just a super entity(if he exists).
You can't shift all blame to our 'languages' if you wish but the fact still remain that God can't do what was a simple requirement of him.

echidna

Answerer, if you read the numerous discussions on omnipotence, you will notice that most of them are mainly regarding semantics, definitions & wording. Yes, the English language is highly relevant to this line of reasoning.

Can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift ?

If you wish to demonstrate that this anti-logic is proof of God’s non-existence, so be it. But I’d suggest that EoG has many threads with more substance.

I share a common opinion that the word omnipotence is of little value to anybody unless one spends 200 pages defining it, & frankly my attention span is not up to the task.

Christopher Lord

Interesting!

Lets extend the cat experiment a bit, shall we?

We set up a doomsday machine, capable of destroying all life on earth, and put it in the control of a device which depended on quantum effects to either trigger the doomsday machine or not.

Could GOD ALMIGHTY predict the results of this? if he can, something is wrong with QM, and thus with all the devices we have which depend on its effects.

If he can not, he is not all powerful.

The only way out is to claim god has a back door to QM for just such a situation.

Until such a back door is discovered, omnimax beings are Not Possible in our universe, Period!

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Christopher Lord ]</p>