Tony99

I was listening to NPR the other day and some one was discussing a new movie loosley base on the Count of Monte Christo.
This got me thinking about revenge...
With the all the current events (9-11, Iraq, etc.)
is there a naturalistic reason/purpose for revenge?
Is it rooted in a need to eliminate competition or establish a hierarchy?
It seems the desire for revenge has always been with us. Anyone willing to help organize and break it down for me?

Thanks,
Tony


"This is certain, that a man that studieth revenge, keeps his own wounds green, which otherwise would heal, and do well. Public revenges are for the most part fortunate; as that for the death of Caesar; for the death of Pertinax; for the death of Henry the Third of France; and many more. But in private revenges, it is not so. Nay rather, vindictive persons live the life of witches; who, as they are mischievous, so end they infortunate."
-Of Revenge
by Francis Bacon

jpbrooks

This is a tough one, and I wish I had more time to deal with this issue.

Revenge/vengeance is often associated with the concept of justice, and indeed seems to be something that is carried out after reflecting on prior events. Revenge is rarely, if ever, carried out in response to the behavior of nonhuman things. So this seems to suggest that the desire to carry out revenge comes about as a result of the evaluation of the behavior and/or (assumed) motives of other human beings. The behavior of other humans who commit "wrongs" against us is measured against the expectations of human behavior according to our own personal standards of behavior and deemed as "wrong" and punishable by revenge.

I wish I had time to find and post the reference material on this issue.

I'll be back later.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]</p>

Jamie_L

Without going into a dissertation, I can think of examples where revenge-type behavior in an animal can be argued to benefit the survival of the species. In this case "you" refers to the animal suffering the wrong and exacting the revenge.

1) Another animal enters your territory and hunts on it. You discover it, seek out the other animal and kill it. The animal in question will no longer take prey from your territory, and may serve as a warning to others. This benefits survival because the more animals that hunt in your territory, the less prey there is for you, your offspring, and your social unit. This behavior is similar to exacting revenge for theft.

2) Another animal kills one of your offspring or a member of your social unit. You seek the other animal out and kill it. The offending annimal will no longer be able to kill other of your offspring or social unit. It may also serve as a warning to other animals that might do likewise. This benefits the species because it reduces the likelihood that your offspring or those who support you and your offspring will be killed. This behavior is similar to exacting revenge for the harm or murder of a family member or friend.

Edited to add: Note that if you and your group has this revenge behavior, it becomes a selection pressure on the other animals. Animals that don't attack you are less likely to be sought out for revenge. Given enough generations, other animals may begin to instinctively leave you alone, adding an extra level of effectiveness to the revenge instinct as a survival mechanism.

Jamie

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

Tony99

Good stuff there jpbrooks. If you come across any reference material I would love to read up.
Seems my web searches come up empty on this specific topic.
-"So this seems to suggest that the desire to carry out revenge comes about as a result of the evaluation of the behavior and/or (assumed) motives of other human beings."-jpbrooks

Which leads to the next series of questions...The thought process involved in evaluating the transgression and determining the level of revenge/retaliation. I wouldn't jump right to killing a guy for stealing my coffee cup. Crap, guess I'll pour through the Morality thread to come up with some answers about "personal standards of behavior."

IMO people seem to get a feeling of satisfaction from revenge if no material gain. Guess I'm still stumped on the purpose of why humans feel a need to get even. I guess I'm looking for a broad answer, but it's so subjective.

Jamie_L--I'm following you on point 1.
Where the animals are lacking is the ability to evaluate the level of revenge. Jumping right to eliminating the perceived threat...I must do this in order for my offspring and I to survive.
Not sure if this is revenge or survival instinct.
It may have started in as a survival instinct in humans on some basic level, but it seems to be a uniquley human meme.

2) Another animal kills one of your offspring or a member of your social unit. You seek the other animal out and kill it. The offending annimal will no longer be able to kill other of your offspring or social unit.

Not familliar with animals doing this. This example seems exclusively human.

Given enough generations, other animals may begin to instinctively leave you alone, adding an extra level of effectiveness to the revenge instinct as a survival mechanism.

This would explain revenge avoidance. Or at least the incentive for a species to mind it's own business.

Keep em coming. Thanks

Paddy

Perhaps it is because of our unique human cognitive abilities that this phenomena is exclusively human.

Defiant Heretic

First off, I agree with Jamie_L's post. I also think that revenge may play into the social structure of a local group. If a member of the society challenges the authority of the alpha, the alpha must 'exact revenge' upon the transgressor. This secures the alpha's position both by eliminating the threat, serving as a warning to other potential challengers, and demonstrating to the rest of the group that the alpha is capable of defending them from aggressors.

Ierrellus

Hi, Tony99,

IMO, as humans become more "civilized" (civil), revenge becomes demands in excess of retribution.
This position opens up a host of questions: how does one give back anything equal to a life? what are the social standards in any given society for retribution? what is the meaning of value for the person seeking revenge? does revenge destroy the avenger? etc., etc. Check out google sites on metaethics to get philosophical discussions of these questions.

I've got opinions; but I'll delay them pending research. Good luck with good thread.

Ierrellus
PAX

jpbrooks

Hello again, Tony99.

Sorry for the delay in posting my reply.
It is certainly possible that emotions that accompany rhe carrying out of revenge may have evolutionary components. However, revenge appears to be something that is carried out after reflecting on and evaluating situations that we are involved in. It is not clear how revenge, as an (inbred) unconscious motivation, could (all by itself) become able to decide what specific individuals it ought to be directed against. Even if we assume that ethical behavior has/had an evolutionary origin, it is not clear how a motivation in an individual to exact revenge against another individual for behavior that is deemed harmful or dangerous, could have evolved. Why would a "blind" impulse to exact revenge on another individual care whether that "offender" is actually a "friend" (family member, etc.) or a "foe"?


The apparent dearth of online references on this topic may be the result of its level of popularity. Discussions about revenge in the "western world" seem to center around the biblical references on revenge in relation to "forgiveness", or around the events that took place on 9/11/2001. So those are the kind of references that are most likely to be found among english language sites located by the search engines.

In any case, I hope the following references (some of which are only indirect) will be of some value to you all:

1.-<a href="http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/reader/20.php3" target="_blank">The justification of punishment</a>

2.-<a href="http://members.aol.com/avpsyrich/anger.htm" target="_blank">The psychology of anger</a>


3.-<a href="http://www.reasoned.org/rs_txt13.htm" target="_blank">Good and evil</a>

4.-<a href="http://www.reasoned.org/rs_txt14.htm" target="_blank">Crime and punishment</a>

I'll be back later.

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]</p>

Mr. Sammi

A simple act of revenge can be done in order to neutralize OR try to neutralise, the mental state which overpowers the being which posesses it (the mental state). Clearly a selfish reason and adaquately enough for the solipsist.

In this light it becomes obvious to the learned few, very learned few (in the process of expansion), that a stranger can be revenged against because the stranger had performed either a good action OR a bad action. (I speak of good AND bad as strictly relative opposites with range data ascribed to the relation between the two).

Some people hate good actions, and hence in their warped states of mind, they must enact actions of revenge to stabilize (normalise) their mental states, so they can continue living in their ranges of comfort. In this paragraph I spoke not of Me.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Isn't the idea of 'revenge' based on the idea that--deep down--everyone wants to do 'bad' things, but some of us want a reason?

It seems that some people want to cause others to suffer, but 'the right' others; meaning those who had first harmed something or someone that I value.

You hurt me first, so now I am free to 'hurt you back'.

I find the desire for vengeance extremely flawed.

I have no problem with protecting myself, and if that meant that I had to kill someone who was a direct threat to me, my family, or my property, I don't doubt I could.

My only goal, were I attacked, would be to prevent my attacker from causing further harm. The object of vengeance is to cause further harm, believing that doing so is justified as 'payment' (payback) for earlier harm.

I don't wish to be someone who revels in anyone's suffering, whether that 'anyone' is an innocent, rapist, murderer, terrorist, etc.

Keith.