Freethought & Rationalism Archive

braces_for_impact · 06-04-2002, 10:37 AM

Annunaki:

I`m perplexed as to why theres even a discussion of the Christian implications of Adam & Eve. Why is it necassary to get into the myth time machine to try and sort all this nonsense out in the mythical realm?

It's a matter of truth. It is far easier to get a point across when working within a believer's own framework. In other words, it's easier to convince someone of the inconsistencies and contradictions in their own beliefs, than to convince them that their belief is entirely unfounded. Such is the nature of faith. It is an irrational belief unfounded by evidence, or in despite of evidence contrary to the belief. I was also a xtian at one time, and I also know how much stress most religious doctrines put on faith, and maintaining one's faith regardless of circumstances.

Anunnaki · 06-04-2002, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by braces_for_impact:
Annunaki:

I`m perplexed as to why theres even a discussion of the Christian implications of Adam & Eve. Why is it necassary to get into the myth time machine to try and sort all this nonsense out in the mythical realm?

It's a matter of truth. It is far easier to get a point across when working within a believer's own framework. In other words, it's easier to convince someone of the inconsistencies and contradictions in their own beliefs, than to convince them that their belief is entirely unfounded. Such is the nature of faith. It is an irrational belief unfounded by evidence, or in despite of evidence contrary to the belief. I was also a xtian at one time, and I also know how much stress most religious doctrines put on faith, and maintaining one's faith regardless of circumstances.

I understand this,but I probably don`t understand it as well as others here since I was never a fundy or even a Christian of any stripe from my ealry teen years on. (I`m 32)

I do get the idea of "working within a believers framework" and I think it`s probably the best way of going about it,but It still feels a bit like we might be giving these old stories some credibilty by discussing them seriously with a lot of "what if`s" and other hypotheticals.

Eh. Maybe it`s just me.

ax · 06-04-2002, 05:10 PM

I did a bit of research and found that the genisis
beggining is almost Identical to the babalonian one.All cultures seem to have the same story, so it seems like more than just a mere co-insident to some degree( i've found a lot of other things to!).Anyway, the bible should really be taken on face value to a degree, I'm amazed to find that the bible accomodates for all kinds of indescrepicies, so when these "basic" thoughts come about, surely there is an answer to them.
( I've been burned already for my thoughts by people who claim to be looking out for my best interests,they've drawn the " i'm older and wiser than you" card", it amazes me!!

Anunnaki · 06-04-2002, 05:44 PM

The biblical genesis sounds like the Sumerian/Babylonian creation epic because THEY ARE the same story.

The old testament claims that Abraham,the patriarch of the bible,came from a Sumerian city. I think it was UR,but I might be wrong. Abraham was not a real guy,but real people DID migrate out of Mesopotamia after the birth of civilization and take their mythology with them.
Many of the details were lost or changed by the time these stories finally got to the jews who wrote the bible,but they didn`t know and didn`t care. They wrote all this stuff down regardless of if it was true or made any sense or not and people are still reading it til this day. Unfortunately some of us take this hodge podge of stories and distorted history at face value.

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]

ax · 06-04-2002, 06:17 PM

Try reading issac assimovs "in the beggining.."
It sure is an eye opener!!(although he reads into things a bit to much i rekon).Still, what is god trying to do to our minds? Surely the OT authors could have not known how well all the stories relate to science!!(re: " in the beggining"..)maybe the bible is true to a degree after all, <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

ax · 06-04-2002, 06:34 PM

hmmm, I've been thinking sometimes I get depressed and (I have mixed mania) I feel like killing myself. When I say "oh well, I'll just go to heaven" this is what follows,
Me: I'll die and go to heaven"
Bible: Murder is a sin, so you'll go to hell
M: Didn't jesus die for all sins past and present?
B: yes
M:so therebye I'm covered.
B: no
m: what if I lie and then get hit by a truck?
B: its off to heaven
M:why?
B: cause jesus died for your all sins.
M: hmmphhh.( depressed).
This is where I believe the bible stuffs things up, I know God exists, but the bible doesn't show him in such a good light!

philechat · 06-04-2002, 07:37 PM

Go ahead and read the great myths of the other traditions (other than the Bible). Maybe certain truths are also found in the other myths.

We should read the Bible critically just like we read all the other myths in the world's cultures. All the myths contains certain "truths" in a sense that it conveys messeges about (a certain culture's) human experience. They are, however, not factual and should not be read as so.

The properties of God (or gods or spiritual realms for that matter), if you read other myths, would probably differ greatly from one mythical tradition to another. Ergo for the afterlife beliefs (heaven, hell, reincarnation, underworld, resurrection, nirvana, eternal recurrance, wandering ghosts). So how can one be sure that the God of his/her religion be true? Or perhaps the gods were just human creations as to offer working solutions to their existential angst?

Welcome to the glorious disillusionment

. Let us become gods and creators ourselves, without worries about the world beyond our deaths.

"If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life." ~Albert Camus

(edited to add quote)

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]

ax · 06-04-2002, 10:51 PM

where have all the xians gone??Don't tell me they've abandoned me like my God? check out the christian message boards that helen spoke of earlier, 1)They avoid a decent answer and, 2)just keep repeating how much God loves them!!

HelenM · 06-05-2002, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ax:
hmmm, I've been thinking sometimes I get depressed and (I have mixed mania) I feel like killing myself. When I say "oh well, I'll just go to heaven" this is what follows,
Me: I'll die and go to heaven"
Bible: Murder is a sin, so you'll go to hell
M: Didn't jesus die for all sins past and present?
B: yes
M:so therebye I'm covered.
B: no
m: what if I lie and then get hit by a truck?
B: its off to heaven
M:why?
B: cause jesus died for your all sins.
M: hmmphhh.( depressed).
This is where I believe the bible stuffs things up, I know God exists, but the bible doesn't show him in such a good light!

Ahhhh, another Bipolar person! Me too

Anyway...I'm not sure it's a good idea to tell Christians "no, actually, you would still go to heaven if you killed yourself" - I mean, mightn't that encourage them to do it?

But, actually, my church teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, once saved (see the end of Romans 8). Not even suicide.

But - don't do it! There has to be a better way...

Re: other Christians. Yeah, I guess the <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000769" target="_blank">Baptist Board</a> folks aren't keen to venture here [again].

love
Helen

love
Helen

Panta Pei · 06-05-2002, 03:07 AM

"But, actually, my church teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, once saved (see the end of Romans 8). Not even suicide."

...or homicide, for that matter.

For the record, who can tell me what is the only heinous offense that allegedly can separate us "from the love of God in Christ"?

Oh, alright, I'll spare you all the suspense, the answer is found in Matthew, letteth me preach on:

10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

How utterly convenient <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

I'm still not entirely sure how this grand order effected Peter though. How many times did he deny Big J again...once, twice...ummm?

Cockadoodledoo

ax, don't kill or otherwise harm yourself, hang around and check out "The Two Towers" this December...you know the rest

PS You have the coolest email address I've seen in quite a while

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Panta Pei ]

06-04-2002, 05:44 PM	#54
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	The biblical genesis sounds like the Sumerian/Babylonian creation epic because THEY ARE the same story. The old testament claims that Abraham,the patriarch of the bible,came from a Sumerian city. I think it was UR,but I might be wrong. Abraham was not a real guy,but real people DID migrate out of Mesopotamia after the birth of civilization and take their mythology with them. Many of the details were lost or changed by the time these stories finally got to the jews who wrote the bible,but they didn`t know and didn`t care. They wrote all this stuff down regardless of if it was true or made any sense or not and people are still reading it til this day. Unfortunately some of us take this hodge podge of stories and distorted history at face value. [ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

06-04-2002, 07:37 PM	#57
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	Go ahead and read the great myths of the other traditions (other than the Bible). Maybe certain truths are also found in the other myths. We should read the Bible critically just like we read all the other myths in the world's cultures. All the myths contains certain "truths" in a sense that it conveys messeges about (a certain culture's) human experience. They are, however, not factual and should not be read as so. The properties of God (or gods or spiritual realms for that matter), if you read other myths, would probably differ greatly from one mythical tradition to another. Ergo for the afterlife beliefs (heaven, hell, reincarnation, underworld, resurrection, nirvana, eternal recurrance, wandering ghosts). So how can one be sure that the God of his/her religion be true? Or perhaps the gods were just human creations as to offer working solutions to their existential angst? Welcome to the glorious disillusionment . Let us become gods and creators ourselves, without worries about the world beyond our deaths. "If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life." ~Albert Camus (edited to add quote) [ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

06-05-2002, 03:07 AM	#60
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	"But, actually, my church teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, once saved (see the end of Romans 8). Not even suicide." ...or homicide, for that matter. For the record, who can tell me what is the only heinous offense that allegedly can separate us "from the love of God in Christ"? Oh, alright, I'll spare you all the suspense, the answer is found in Matthew, letteth me preach on: 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. How utterly convenient <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> I'm still not entirely sure how this grand order effected Peter though. How many times did he deny Big J again...once, twice...ummm? Cockadoodledoo ax, don't kill or otherwise harm yourself, hang around and check out "The Two Towers" this December...you know the rest PS You have the coolest email address I've seen in quite a while [ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Panta Pei ]</p>

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06-04-2002, 10:37 AM	#51
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Annunaki: I`m perplexed as to why theres even a discussion of the Christian implications of Adam & Eve. Why is it necassary to get into the myth time machine to try and sort all this nonsense out in the mythical realm? It's a matter of truth. It is far easier to get a point across when working within a believer's own framework. In other words, it's easier to convince someone of the inconsistencies and contradictions in their own beliefs, than to convince them that their belief is entirely unfounded. Such is the nature of faith. It is an irrational belief unfounded by evidence, or in despite of evidence contrary to the belief. I was also a xtian at one time, and I also know how much stress most religious doctrines put on faith, and maintaining one's faith regardless of circumstances.

06-04-2002, 05:10 PM	#53
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	I did a bit of research and found that the genisis beggining is almost Identical to the babalonian one.All cultures seem to have the same story, so it seems like more than just a mere co-insident to some degree( i've found a lot of other things to!).Anyway, the bible should really be taken on face value to a degree, I'm amazed to find that the bible accomodates for all kinds of indescrepicies, so when these "basic" thoughts come about, surely there is an answer to them. ( I've been burned already for my thoughts by people who claim to be looking out for my best interests,they've drawn the " i'm older and wiser than you" card", it amazes me!!

06-04-2002, 06:17 PM	#55
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	Try reading issac assimovs "in the beggining.." It sure is an eye opener!!(although he reads into things a bit to much i rekon).Still, what is god trying to do to our minds? Surely the OT authors could have not known how well all the stories relate to science!!(re: " in the beggining"..)maybe the bible is true to a degree after all, <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

06-04-2002, 06:34 PM	#56
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	hmmm, I've been thinking sometimes I get depressed and (I have mixed mania) I feel like killing myself. When I say "oh well, I'll just go to heaven" this is what follows, Me: I'll die and go to heaven" Bible: Murder is a sin, so you'll go to hell M: Didn't jesus die for all sins past and present? B: yes M:so therebye I'm covered. B: no m: what if I lie and then get hit by a truck? B: its off to heaven M:why? B: cause jesus died for your all sins. M: hmmphhh.( depressed). This is where I believe the bible stuffs things up, I know God exists, but the bible doesn't show him in such a good light!

06-04-2002, 10:51 PM	#58
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	where have all the xians gone??Don't tell me they've abandoned me like my God? check out the christian message boards that helen spoke of earlier, 1)They avoid a decent answer and, 2)just keep repeating how much God loves them!!

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