Freethought & Rationalism Archive

happyboy · 11-30-2002, 03:11 AM

to me, God is a symbol of creative energy, wonder, and imagination. the attributes we apply to God are all in us, through our imagination and scientific drive.

one of the primary reason i ceased being a christian (or any kind of actual theist, for that matter) is my sexuality. i am a gay man, and i have struggled with that aspect of my life since i was 13. i have felt guilt, i have felt shame, and i have felt self-hatred, all because of how society views homosexuals.

please note that even as a theist i never believed God hated gays. it seemed so odd to me that God would hate someone he made gay, because they're gay. that seems odd to me, that he would make someone a certain way, and then hate them for it.

but the fact remains that a few lines out of an old book that no one can prove correct has led to countless years of hate and oppression. the bible views gays as lustful monsters that seek only to screw, screw screw. sorry, fundies, but i can and have fallen in love before. yes, sex is nice, but i want to fall in love, not just to get laid. i am a normal person, with normal values and a normal conscience.

of course there are other reasons why i stopped being a believer, the main reason being that the bible is so full of contradictions that it made me ill just reading it, but that's beside the point.

happyboy

Marduk · 11-30-2002, 07:09 AM

The oppression of gays by Christians is a more modern phenomenon. No one in Biblical times thought of themselves as ‘gay’ or ‘straight’. Sex was about dominance and submission, and the Old Testament prohibitions against ‘homosexuality’ refer to rape and male prostitution, specifically Temple Prostitutes, which was forbidden of women as well because it was a big thing with ‘Pagan’ religions.

Sevagram · 11-30-2002, 08:14 AM

Besides, the Old Testament contains one of the greatest homosexual love stories of all time. If you can get hold of a copy, Tom Horner's "Jonathan Loved David: Homosexuality in Biblical Times" is essential reading for anyone who still thinks homosexuality is uniformally condemned by scripture.

The Admiral · 12-02-2002, 04:02 AM

Tom Horners book is no doubt very interesting, I never heard of it before. But just read it right out of the bible, it's clear enough. David loved Jonathon with a passion beyond that of his love for women.

The Admiral

Gamaliel · 12-02-2002, 06:34 AM

let's see...

I hope this is not out of line, but it sounds like you have been burned by people who claimed to be christians. The hallmark of the christian is to be Love. Not necessarily acceptance, but a genuine caring for people...(we love because He first loved us)..us being sinners...

If you would like to bring up some of the contradictions you have found, I'll try to bring up some answers...

Also...in theory, is anything wrong with anything...? why?

G

Mageth · 12-02-2002, 07:07 AM

The hallmark of the christian is to be Love. Not necessarily acceptance, but a genuine caring for people...

"I love you, I care for you, but I don't accept you the way you are, and according to the Bible your lifestyle is an abomination to God."

Why don't you start with the contradictions implicit in this "christian" attitude? Would you say the above to your brother or your son?

happyboy · 12-02-2002, 03:47 PM

pretty much the entire old testament (with the strange exception of johnathan and david) tells us flat out that people like me are abominations and ought to be killed.

a very pissed off happyboy

Gamaliel · 12-02-2002, 06:06 PM

Here goes...

Quote:

contradictions implicit in this "christian" attitude?

Love vs. Acceptance, round 1

Everything can find a contradiction if we define words and life the way WE want. I believe it was C.E.M. Joad who used to say, "It all depends on what you mean by..."

If I am all accepting (read all approving) am I all loving (read unselfishly concerned for the good of others)? I must answer no...If I am all accepting of my son, I am certainly not all loving since he will do that which needs discipline. By me not accepting some behavior, I am showing love to him (not allowing him to play in a busy street)

Happy, I think we can both agree that we are glad not to live under Old Testament Law...

for humble consideration...G

Mageth · 12-03-2002, 07:42 AM

Tell me what about my statement "I love you, I care for you, but I don't accept you the way you are, and according to the Bible your lifestyle is an abomination to God" do you disagree with?

By me not accepting some behavior, I am showing love to him (not allowing him to play in a busy street)

False analogy. We're not talking about your son playing in a busy street (which obviously no parent should "accept"), we're talking about your son being Gay (which is not a chosen behavior). A better (but not perfect, I admit) analogy would be your not accepting your son having red hair; even better yet, not accepting your son being musically gifted.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Gamaliel · 12-04-2002, 05:51 AM

I think we are getting hung up on the definition of "accept"...regardless of circumstance, my son is still my son AND I will not approve of all behavior

- does acceptance of a person = approval of every behavior Y/N
- Are ALL sexual tastes equally valid? Y/N why?
- Is being yourself automatically Good? Y/N

G

11-30-2002, 03:11 AM	#1
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	why i no longer believe in God as anything other than a symbol to me, God is a symbol of creative energy, wonder, and imagination. the attributes we apply to God are all in us, through our imagination and scientific drive. one of the primary reason i ceased being a christian (or any kind of actual theist, for that matter) is my sexuality. i am a gay man, and i have struggled with that aspect of my life since i was 13. i have felt guilt, i have felt shame, and i have felt self-hatred, all because of how society views homosexuals. please note that even as a theist i never believed God hated gays. it seemed so odd to me that God would hate someone he made gay, because they're gay. that seems odd to me, that he would make someone a certain way, and then hate them for it. but the fact remains that a few lines out of an old book that no one can prove correct has led to countless years of hate and oppression. the bible views gays as lustful monsters that seek only to screw, screw screw. sorry, fundies, but i can and have fallen in love before. yes, sex is nice, but i want to fall in love, not just to get laid. i am a normal person, with normal values and a normal conscience. of course there are other reasons why i stopped being a believer, the main reason being that the bible is so full of contradictions that it made me ill just reading it, but that's beside the point. happyboy

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11-30-2002, 07:09 AM	#2
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	The oppression of gays by Christians is a more modern phenomenon. No one in Biblical times thought of themselves as ‘gay’ or ‘straight’. Sex was about dominance and submission, and the Old Testament prohibitions against ‘homosexuality’ refer to rape and male prostitution, specifically Temple Prostitutes, which was forbidden of women as well because it was a big thing with ‘Pagan’ religions.

11-30-2002, 08:14 AM	#3
Sevagram New Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: England Posts: 1	Besides, the Old Testament contains one of the greatest homosexual love stories of all time. If you can get hold of a copy, Tom Horner's "Jonathan Loved David: Homosexuality in Biblical Times" is essential reading for anyone who still thinks homosexuality is uniformally condemned by scripture.

12-02-2002, 04:02 AM	#4
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Tom Horners book is no doubt very interesting, I never heard of it before. But just read it right out of the bible, it's clear enough. David loved Jonathon with a passion beyond that of his love for women. The Admiral

12-02-2002, 06:34 AM	#5
Gamaliel Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: FL Posts: 13	let's see... I hope this is not out of line, but it sounds like you have been burned by people who claimed to be christians. The hallmark of the christian is to be Love. Not necessarily acceptance, but a genuine caring for people...(we love because He first loved us)..us being sinners... If you would like to bring up some of the contradictions you have found, I'll try to bring up some answers... Also...in theory, is anything wrong with anything...? why? G

12-02-2002, 07:07 AM	#6
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The hallmark of the christian is to be Love. Not necessarily acceptance, but a genuine caring for people... "I love you, I care for you, but I don't accept you the way you are, and according to the Bible your lifestyle is an abomination to God." Why don't you start with the contradictions implicit in this "christian" attitude? Would you say the above to your brother or your son?

12-02-2002, 03:47 PM	#7
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	pretty much the entire old testament (with the strange exception of johnathan and david) tells us flat out that people like me are abominations and ought to be killed. a very pissed off happyboy

12-03-2002, 07:42 AM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Tell me what about my statement "I love you, I care for you, but I don't accept you the way you are, and according to the Bible your lifestyle is an abomination to God" do you disagree with? By me not accepting some behavior, I am showing love to him (not allowing him to play in a busy street) False analogy. We're not talking about your son playing in a busy street (which obviously no parent should "accept"), we're talking about your son being Gay (which is not a chosen behavior). A better (but not perfect, I admit) analogy would be your not accepting your son having red hair; even better yet, not accepting your son being musically gifted. [ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

12-04-2002, 05:51 AM	#10
Gamaliel Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: FL Posts: 13	I think we are getting hung up on the definition of "accept"...regardless of circumstance, my son is still my son AND I will not approve of all behavior - does acceptance of a person = approval of every behavior Y/N - Are ALL sexual tastes equally valid? Y/N why? - Is being yourself automatically Good? Y/N G

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