Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Justin70 · 04-12-2003, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
How does omnipotence become a contradiction? Paradoxes can't exist, even for God. God can't defy his own nature. Not being able to do absolutely anything the human mind can conceive, doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent.

God can do absolute anything that doesn't defy His nature, because to do so would mean He wasn't God. I don't quite get why this is such a hard concept.

And to your problem with God not helping humanity enough. First of all, He saved you from your death sentence for your earthly crimes ( of course I know you think big woop but nonetheless He did). Second, lets suppose God did help humanity out. If God helped humanity out, He would be undeniable, correct? Everyone would believe in Him, and if you knew for a fact He existed - why would you ever deny Him since you know He would punish you? ( right now, since you don't know for sure He exists, the possibility of punishment doesn't phase you). That means, no one would love God because they want to and because they believe in what He says, they would love Him solely for fear of punishment or because they had no other choice... bye bye free will.

Now, we come to 2 scenarios in relation to human actions. First, if you know for a fact that God exists, why would you ever do anything against Him since you know you'd be punished? That again, messes with Free will. You aren't going to make the choice to kill someone or have evil thoughts if God is standing over you.

Second scenario. If God helped humanity in some ways, He would have to stop every single bad thing that will ever happen. If He was arbitrary in who He helped, then that defeats the purpose of helping humanity in the first place. By constantly helping humanity, God would be at your beckon call, and humans would be in control of God. Humans don't tell God what to do, because it destroys His sovereignty - God isn't a magic genie. He created you, He's in control and makes the decisions - not the other way around.

Now, if God stops every evil action or problem in the world, where does free will come in? You couldn't make any choices on your own, because all of them would be God's choices, not your own. And if you no longer have Free will, you can't love God because you want to, you'd have to love Him since you'd have no other choice, and God doesn't force love - He wants it to be sincere.

I know you have a big problem with God not helping humanity at every whim, but it would no longer make Him God or preserve free will if you can't make your own choices, and He ends up being at humanities beckon call. By remaining hidden, He can help when He deems it in His will and part of His plan, and humans have to call on Him and pray for God. This increases faith, devotion, love and maintains His sovereignty and Godliness. He can also help people without it affecting Free will, because you still have the choice to do what your want, since God won't always stop it. He gives you responsibility and lets the consequences be carried out. Yes, God doesn't always help with every problem or action ( at least, not in obvious ways). Many times for reasons we just can't understand, but that doesn't mean He doesn't care. It just means there are reasons He doesn't to preserve his sovereignty, human prayer and faith, and free will.

Sorry for the slight derail, just thought i would answer those questions. And Goliath, i'm sure my explanation still isn't satisfactory to you, but I tried to explain it as best as possible. God does care more than you can ever imagine, but there are higher reasons and purposes for why things happen that we don't fully understand, and we just have to accept them.

If there, like, one thread on this board that we can have fun without Magus55 taking things so seriously? Or better yet, is there one thread that he doesn't feel he HAS to post his garbage?

Goliath · 04-12-2003, 02:59 PM

Magus55,

Quote:

How does omnipotence become a contradiction?

Simply through questions such as:

1. Can your god make a rock so big that he cannot lift it? (a tried and true classic)

2. Can your god destroy itself?

etc, etc, etc.

Quote:

God can't defy his own nature.

Then the xian god is not omnipotent.

Since the rest of your rambling rests upon the assumption that your god exists, and since you have not proven that your god exists, it follows that the rest of your post is rendered moot.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Godot · 04-13-2003, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblade
And what if I have three heads, but no mouths?

Does this mean you talk out of your ass then?

Godot · 04-13-2003, 04:26 AM

Seriously though,
if I had to believe in a god-construct, I'd be content with a pantheon akin to either the Greek or Norse idea (they're the one's I'm most familiar with). Gods as petty as us? Works for me.

fishbulb · 04-13-2003, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
How does omnipotence become a contradiction? Paradoxes can't exist, even for God. God can't defy his own nature. Not being able to do absolutely anything the human mind can conceive, doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent.

God can do absolute anything that doesn't defy His nature, because to do so would mean He wasn't God. I don't quite get why this is such a hard concept.

It's not a hard problem. We are all able to do only those things that we are able to do. But if, when you say that God is omniscient and omnipotent, all you mean is that God can do whatever he happens to be able to do, you are not making a useful or informative statement.

Quote:

And to your problem with God not helping humanity enough. First of all, He saved you from your death sentence for your earthly crimes ( of course I know you think big woop but nonetheless He did).

The death sentence he, himself imposed?

Quote:

Second, lets suppose God did help humanity out. If God helped humanity out, He would be undeniable, correct?

No. A sufficiently powerful and creative god could surely find a way to make the universe work out better for us than it currently does while still retaining plausible deniability. It is easy to think of countless things about the universe that could be more accomodating to us without implying the existence of a god.

Quote:

Everyone would believe in Him, and if you knew for a fact He existed - why would you ever deny Him since you know He would punish you? ( right now, since you don't know for sure He exists, the possibility of punishment doesn't phase you). That means, no one would love God because they want to and because they believe in what He says, they would love Him solely for fear of punishment or because they had no other choice... bye bye free will.

Whenever I see this argument I have to wonder if the person making it is a psychopath. I know that it is illegal to commit murder and that if I do, I will probably be caught and punished. But that isn't the reason I don't make a habit of killing people. Likewise, there are people I know for certain exist, but my feelings for them are not based solely on what they can give me or what the will or won't do to me if I don't love or care about them.

The whole free will notion is bogus. Love is a genuine emotion that cannot be coerced. Under threat of torture, you can make people do and say a lot of things, but you can't make them love you. It makes absolutely no sense that you would have to hide your existence in order to avoid having people love you because they are afraid of you. Even if it did make sense, everyone who does love God obviously believes that God exists, and so should also be aware of the supposed eternity of torture that awaits those who don't love God. You cannot eliminate the coercive aspect just because God's existence cannot be proven. The fact that people believe God exists causes them to act in particular ways.

Quote:

Now, we come to 2 scenarios in relation to human actions. First, if you know for a fact that God exists, why would you ever do anything against Him since you know you'd be punished? That again, messes with Free will. You aren't going to make the choice to kill someone or have evil thoughts if God is standing over you.

First, no one chooses to have thoughts. Thoughts happen and if they happen to be "evil," then that's what they happen to be. Second, this free will spectre comes up again. What do you think it means to have free will? I know that if I murder someone, there will be consequences, but I can still choose freely whether or not to snuff someone who irritates me. I know that if I eat food that is too spicy that I may get gas and indigestion, but I can stillo freely choose between the extra-spicy curry and the medium spice. Sometimes (perhaps even oftentimes) I may choose the extra-spicy, even though I know what the ultimate consequence may be. I know that every action I take has consequences, some good, some bad, some mixed. Does the fact that I know that certain choices bring negative, perhaps very negative, consequences mean that I do not have the freedom to make those choices? If so, then what does free will even mean?

Quote:

Second scenario. If God helped humanity in some ways, He would have to stop every single bad thing that will ever happen.

That is just plain silly. Why couldn't God just lower the infant mortality rate, eliminate hepatitis, and just leave evarything else alone? The Bible is full of stories about God helping and hurting humanity in limited and arbitrary ways.

Quote:

If He was arbitrary in who He helped, then that defeats the purpose of helping humanity in the first place. By constantly helping humanity, God would be at your beckon call, and humans would be in control of God. Humans don't tell God what to do, because it destroys His sovereignty - God isn't a magic genie. He created you, He's in control and makes the decisions - not the other way around.

But you are making the decision for him that he must either do as we say or do nothing at all. That is bogus.

Parents help out their children, but they remain in control. A parent doesn't face the stark choice of being at his or her child's beck and call, fulfilling every desire, or else not doing anything at all.

Quote:

Now, if God stops every evil action or problem in the world, where does free will come in? You couldn't make any choices on your own, because all of them would be God's choices, not your own.

If God created the universe to be the way it is, then every choice is God's choice. It's like a Soviet election where you can vote for any candidate you want, but all of the candidates are chosen by the same political party. Furthermore, if God created us and our minds, he must at least have a pretty good idea which choices we will make. If he is omniscient, he must know what choices we will make. If God set everything up, God is responsible for the outcome.

Besides, the choice between "loving" (let's say defering to and obeying, since one cannot choose to love) God and facing eternal torture is a Hobson's choice. It is a coerced choice. If one believes that one must choose one or the other, almost no one would choose the latter. "Love me or face my wrath" is the exact opposite of a free choice.

Your use of the concept of free will is very lazy. Can you even define what you mean by it or why it is even important?

Quote:

I know you have a big problem with God not helping humanity at every whim, but it would no longer make Him God or preserve free will if you can't make your own choices, and He ends up being at humanities beckon call. By remaining hidden, He can help when He deems it in His will and part of His plan, and humans have to call on Him and pray for God.

But you just said:

Quote:

Second scenario. If God helped humanity in some ways, He would have to stop every single bad thing that will ever happen.

and

Quote:

If He was arbitrary in who He helped, then that defeats the purpose of helping humanity in the first place.

So, which is it?

And, by the way, if God responds to our prayer, it means that we do, in fact, have some power over God, unless it is God that is making us pray in the first place. But wouldn't you say that is impossible, on some sort of free will grounds?

philechat · 04-13-2003, 07:20 AM

I have once constructed a pantheon where each god took care of one abstact concept and emotional impulse in humanity. It is somewhat similar to the Greek concept, and the different gods are constantly competing with each other for the favors of humans by influencing our passions toward a given idea or another.

It is actually a much more flexible and adaptable system than an all-good god system in my opinion. Also, each god will require different forms of worship where we would have to learn from hard study and analysis of each given concept. Artistic activities specific to the god (or a given relationship between gods) are also encouraged.

This kind of deity system appeals to me for some reason.

Autonemesis · 04-13-2003, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
If possible I would like atheists to respond to this.
I am doing this as an expiriment.
I'ts not a trick question or anything just make up a god you would like to be around
or explain why you wouldn't conjure one up even if you could
I will explain after a couple days
Thank you

I can't think of any reason to conjure up a custom God. But if I had the power to conjure a custom God, whatever other attributes I'd give it, I'd make damn sure it was incapable of disobedience.

Autonemesis · 04-13-2003, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
[What if, what we see and understand as a contradiction is not a contradiction to God?

Then God is unintelligible, which is to say, meaningless.

dublczek · 04-13-2003, 07:46 AM

I would fashion a God out of pure love, then split him up into infinite parts. All parts would be made to forget who they were. Then I would incarnate them into physical lives to figure the rest out for themselves. Sooner or later, I would be born, join a forum, see this question and do it all over again until I finally believe in God.

cpickett · 04-13-2003, 08:39 AM

I already have one, He is an Australian Shepard, his name is Fred, he's 2 years old, long hair. He's very unruly, only knows the word "bone".... Oh wait, God, damn dyslexia.....

A pet God would be cool though...

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04-13-2003, 04:26 AM	#24
Godot Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary Posts: 1,335	Seriously though, if I had to believe in a god-construct, I'd be content with a pantheon akin to either the Greek or Norse idea (they're the one's I'm most familiar with). Gods as petty as us? Works for me.

04-13-2003, 07:20 AM	#26
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	I have once constructed a pantheon where each god took care of one abstact concept and emotional impulse in humanity. It is somewhat similar to the Greek concept, and the different gods are constantly competing with each other for the favors of humans by influencing our passions toward a given idea or another. It is actually a much more flexible and adaptable system than an all-good god system in my opinion. Also, each god will require different forms of worship where we would have to learn from hard study and analysis of each given concept. Artistic activities specific to the god (or a given relationship between gods) are also encouraged. This kind of deity system appeals to me for some reason.

04-13-2003, 07:46 AM	#29
dublczek Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 132	I would fashion a God out of pure love, then split him up into infinite parts. All parts would be made to forget who they were. Then I would incarnate them into physical lives to figure the rest out for themselves. Sooner or later, I would be born, join a forum, see this question and do it all over again until I finally believe in God.

04-13-2003, 08:39 AM	#30
cpickett Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arcadia, IN, USA Posts: 308	I already have one, He is an Australian Shepard, his name is Fred, he's 2 years old, long hair. He's very unruly, only knows the word "bone".... Oh wait, God, damn dyslexia..... A pet God would be cool though...

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