Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 07-01-2002, 09:57 PM

wow goody2shoes...are you confused about who has the huge ego? Let's see...is it more arrogant to feel we are a cosmic accident as danny boy here does, or that an all powerful superbeing created it all just for us humans because we are the end all be all of existence?

Danny...if you don't believe in a supernatural deity you can be considered an athiest...or you may be more comfortable with "I don't know" and be agnostic...or you may think an alien quantum experiment went awry and we are some sort of bug and call yourself a thylostigan....what best fits your understanding of the world/universe and your place in it?

Autonemesis · 07-01-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dannyk:
I think believing the universe is an accident allows me to feel more at home

You made me laugh out loud. I like that!

Hayden · 07-02-2002, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dannyk:
I think believing the universe is an accident allows me to feel more at home

Me too. I think this song explains it quite well:

Quote:

From Monty Python's Meaning of Life

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough,
And people are stupid, obnoxious, or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite enough,

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

dannyk · 07-02-2002, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:


Danny...if you don't believe in a supernatural deity you can be considered an athiest...or you may be more comfortable with "I don't know" and be agnostic...or you may think an alien quantum experiment went awry and we are some sort of bug and call yourself a thylostigan....what best fits your understanding of the world/universe and your place in it?

Thylostigan is a new one on me , cant seem to find a definition at hand , but it sounds fascinating.If you could provide me with a definition i would love to see it.
Apart from my belief in an 'external event' i suppose agnosticism comes close to what i believe but this world view is something i would definately have to explore further before attempting to relate it to my own view.
Atheism , with its quite specific reference to a deity is something about which i can be a lot more confident in ascribing too.Definately lots for me to think about.

Perchance · 07-02-2002, 06:13 AM

Danny,

I believe the universe is 'pointless' and that the creation of the universe was an 'accident' (in the sense of no intelligence behind it, not created to evolve towards some goal, and so on), for two main reasons:

1) I have seen much evidence for the blind nature of the universe's mechanisms (like evolution), but little that would seem to indicate there's some god out there who has a purpose for us, much less a purpose that involves us being happy.

2) It is what I want to understand (it makes me feel at home, as you said).

I do call myself an agnostic rather than an atheist because I'm not entirely sure, I keep telling myself that this, too, is a belief, and other such reasons. I also am interested in theistic arguments that might convince me, though the arguments for deities like the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Eris Discordia have been the most convincing I've seen so far

.

I think you're an atheist, if you lack a belief in a deity and wish to choose that label.

Welcome to II!

-Perchance.

Viti · 07-02-2002, 09:16 AM

danny said
Thylostigan is a new one on me , cant seem to find a definition at hand , but it sounds fascinating.

It was a joke, son....Thylostigan is not a word.

I was trying to point out it doesn't matter what label you choose...everyone's understanding is what it is, some of us are able to identify with a convenient label...others can't or won't.

goody2shoes · 07-02-2002, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
wow goody2shoes...are you confused about who has the huge ego? Let's see...is it more arrogant to feel we are a cosmic accident as danny boy here does, or that an all powerful superbeing created it all just for us humans because we are the end all be all of existence?

Danny...if you don't believe in a supernatural deity you can be considered an athiest...or you may be more comfortable with "I don't know" and be agnostic...or you may think an alien quantum experiment went awry and we are some sort of bug and call yourself a thylostigan....what best fits your understanding of the world/universe and your place in it?

And then, Danny, there is always the alternative of saying "I don't know" and "I shall investigate and search to see what I can discover" -- instead of taking the advice that you must have a position at all times.

Have you ever tried that for any length of time, Danny?

Goody

dannyk · 07-02-2002, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dannyk:


Thylostigan is a new one on me , cant seem to find a definition at hand , but it sounds fascinating.If you could provide me with a definition i would love to see it.
Apart from my belief in an 'external event' i suppose agnosticism comes close to what i believe but this world view is something i would definately have to explore further before attempting to relate it to my own view.
Atheism , with its quite specific reference to a deity is something about which i can be a lot more confident in ascribing too.Definately lots for me to think about.

goody , "....investigate and search to see what i can discover". I thought thats what i seem to be doing.

Philosoft · 07-02-2002, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dannyk:
I am curious about my own beliefs in the sense that i consider myself an atheist, yet believe in some 'reason' for the universe i find myself in . I dont believe in god as such and dont believe that we as humans could be able to grasp the true essence or structure of god if he existed. Yet as previously stated i do believe in a 'reason' . I am not 'philosophically' experienced hence i pose the question , "am i being inconsistent ?"
Your thoughts would be appreciated :-)

Maybe you could call yourself an Einsteinist, for lack of a better word.

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/einsci.htm" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/einsci.htm</a>

Heading to Hell · 07-02-2002, 12:43 PM

There might well be some sort of overall process going on of which we are not aware, but if it exists it is very probably just another natural force, just one we can't detect.
For example, in the Mars trilogy, Kim Stanley Robinson (dude) raises the idea of viriditas, which is a kind of force that opposes entropy, ie it promotes order rather than disorder, thus promoting the building up of complex structures (like us).
Someone could believe in that kind of force and still be an atheist, just as believing in gravity doesn't mean you believe in a god.
Hope that made sense,
HtH

P.S.
I love that song, Hayden. Ah... Monty Python... bliss.

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07-01-2002, 09:57 PM	#11
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	wow goody2shoes...are you confused about who has the huge ego? Let's see...is it more arrogant to feel we are a cosmic accident as danny boy here does, or that an all powerful superbeing created it all just for us humans because we are the end all be all of existence? Danny...if you don't believe in a supernatural deity you can be considered an athiest...or you may be more comfortable with "I don't know" and be agnostic...or you may think an alien quantum experiment went awry and we are some sort of bug and call yourself a thylostigan....what best fits your understanding of the world/universe and your place in it?

07-02-2002, 06:13 AM	#15
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Danny, I believe the universe is 'pointless' and that the creation of the universe was an 'accident' (in the sense of no intelligence behind it, not created to evolve towards some goal, and so on), for two main reasons: 1) I have seen much evidence for the blind nature of the universe's mechanisms (like evolution), but little that would seem to indicate there's some god out there who has a purpose for us, much less a purpose that involves us being happy. 2) It is what I want to understand (it makes me feel at home, as you said). I do call myself an agnostic rather than an atheist because I'm not entirely sure, I keep telling myself that this, too, is a belief, and other such reasons. I also am interested in theistic arguments that might convince me, though the arguments for deities like the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Eris Discordia have been the most convincing I've seen so far . I think you're an atheist, if you lack a belief in a deity and wish to choose that label. Welcome to II! -Perchance.

07-02-2002, 09:16 AM	#16
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	danny said Thylostigan is a new one on me , cant seem to find a definition at hand , but it sounds fascinating. It was a joke, son....Thylostigan is not a word. I was trying to point out it doesn't matter what label you choose...everyone's understanding is what it is, some of us are able to identify with a convenient label...others can't or won't.

07-02-2002, 12:43 PM	#20
Heading to Hell Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Devon, UK Posts: 58	There might well be some sort of overall process going on of which we are not aware, but if it exists it is very probably just another natural force, just one we can't detect. For example, in the Mars trilogy, Kim Stanley Robinson (dude) raises the idea of viriditas, which is a kind of force that opposes entropy, ie it promotes order rather than disorder, thus promoting the building up of complex structures (like us). Someone could believe in that kind of force and still be an atheist, just as believing in gravity doesn't mean you believe in a god. Hope that made sense, HtH P.S. I love that song, Hayden. Ah... Monty Python... bliss.

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