HelenM

IM, why are you sad?

Are you sad because you wish your fiancee were more available to you?

Are you sad because you don't want to break up with her but feel it may be inevitable?

If the thought of breaking up with your fiancee makes you sad then...you don't have to, of course. Definitely don't do it just because a horoscope says so

Are you sad because there doesn't seem to be a way of having exactly what you'd like?

Of course you don't have to answer.

take care
Helen

Ted Hoffman

Yes
Yes.

You have any words that can make me feel better?

I am planning on talking to her. I dont want to give her an ultimatum. But I think whichever way I put it, will come out like an ultimatum (when it comes to renewing her contract).
I hope our talk will be such that we can come to a compromise. But I see it as a two way thing: she either goes or she doesnt. However I may put it, she will feel I am giving her options (ie giving ultimatums). If I let her decide without telling her of the consequences (ie telling her - "whatever you decide honey, its okay with me"), then I later decide after she has accepted the contract, it might look like an ambush. If we start talking, she will, predictably, just try to persuade me to accept and when I can't be persuaded, she will say I dont understand, not supportive, its her first job, her only job, she needs experience, she needs to have something she can bring into the relationship, she cant bear being jobless, she needs to help me save money for our wedding, she needs to exploit her potential, she wont work there forever, why cant I accept her as he is, why cant I think positively, I should be proud she has a job, its her chance to prove herself, she needs to have that starting point, tears, more tears, kleenex, handkerchief, tears, sob, sob, more kleenex, wet handkerchiefs etc.

But if she accepts another offer, I think I will have to call it quits.

And that seems so futile. Breaking up with someone I still love who hasn't wronged me, who, when we are together, are fully compatible...to break up?

Someone can simply ask me ..."for what?" I will have no answer to that. It just seems like plainly giving up.

The futility of my options is so depressing.

Breaking up is not a solution - its an act of desperation. I can't see what good it will bring other than hurt her and myself. She says she is desperate too - but how desperate? Sometimes I wonder whether its a factor of her being a woman that makes her cope well with this "arrangement"

So many shades of gray... no clear solution I cant see the solution - I can only see the exit... Where is the solution here?

A mans grasp is beyond his reach indeed :banghead:

brighid

IMHO this type of arrangement is easier for some women, in part because of the way we are socialized. There are simply many more consequences for having sex (unprotected or with multiple partners) then it is for men. I think it is even more so within man African cultures. An American woman isn’t going to get stoned to death if she has a child out of wedlock, whereas that might happen in your neck of the woods (without the same consequence for the man who impregnated her.) But I am only marginally educated about some African customs, so please forgive my ignorance if I have misspoken.

Some women are able to tolerate these separations because it isn’t unusual for a woman to have a husband who is gone on business, regularly or for extended periods of time. If adequate birth control is not an option for many women the threat of pregnancy does a number on her sex drive. There are very different social pressures on women in traditional, patriarchal and religious societies. Those women simply adapt to suppressing their sexual desires because of the often grave consequences of doing otherwise. I don’t agree with the suppression those societies place on women, but in some sense I think they increase the pressure on men because it creates this double standard that brings so much grief to a relationship.

Sexual desires aren’t what I would call a “need”, at least in the same sense that food, water, medicine and shelter are basic needs. It is a need of another kind, but not one you will die from if the desire is not immediately fulfilled, or postponed. It might seem like it, but that is what masturbation should be used for. I know many men and women (by choice) who chose celibacy for extended periods of time: months, or even years. It is frustrating, but in one sense many have said it can also be liberating – not worrying about STD’s, pregnancy, or the emotional turmoil that can accompany it. It’s not that one doesn’t miss the intimate contact, nor do I recommend complete suppression of sexual desire, but there are health outlets that don’t harm you, the one your love, or jeopardize a relationship.

I know that I could never be happy in a relationship (regardless of how much I loved a man) if I was told I needed to chose my career, needs, etc. or him. I would have to WANT to make those choices and do so without the threat of guilt trips, or coercion. It would have to be a decision we both made and any sacrifices I did make would have to be temporary and a benefit for all involved. If a compromise could not be reached I would likely end the relationship. One person’s needs are no more important then one’s partners. You have to reach a balance, and sometimes that requires sacrifice, time apart and no sexual contact with another human being.

Personally, I feel it is essential that a woman, before marrying have the education and work experience to be able to support herself and any children she might have. Husbands leave and husbands die and it usually the man who dies/leaves before the woman, especially in traditional societies. She needs to be able to hold her own to have a strong sense of self and security that if something bad happens she won’t be dependent on begging in the streets to feed her children. She needs that independence and in the long run it will strike a balance in your relationship that will help promote and maintain harmony. It also gives her the ability to leave an abusive situation if that arises. She should not be dependent on you, her father, or any other man for her well-being. She needs to be her own person before she becomes a wife, and mother. Let her have that, she will likely be insanely miserable for the length of your marriage if she cannot proceed with her goals. I would hope you would not want a wife who has no mind of her own, abilities of her own, or is unable to help support your children in the event of tragedy (such as loss of your job, or physical ability to work due to illness or injury.) She will be a better wife and mother because of those experiences and abilities.

You had previously discussed the stress the cost of the wedding was causing you, and I think it speaks a lot about your fiancé that she wants to contribute to the wedding to help remove some of the burden from your shoulders. Especially given all the people you help support. IMO, when looking to what you desire in the long-term, the short-term sacrifices are worth it. The here and now is difficult, but it can be overcome.

If you love her you must be honest with her about your feelings and turmoil. If the truth ends the relationship, or causes pain then there is nothing you can do, or regret. If you deceive her there will be much to regret. You both need to make life decisions based upon honesty so the essential trust of your relationship is not harmed. If you lose her because of truth, you lose her. But if you keep her by theft you have injected a slow growing poison in your relationship that will eventually destroy it … slowly, but surely and the pain of a festering wound is much greater then that of a quick and clean cut.

Brighid

keyser_soze

Brighid has nailed it on the proverbial head.

Maybe we could help you out of the jam...

Why is she working away?
What is it about a wedding that makes her or you feel stressed. Is it essential to have a "big" wedding?
Where is she working in relation to where you are?
Where are you?
Is it feasible for you to relocate?
What kind of work do you do?
Do you live near family?
Do you live near her family?
What possible alternatives can you think of to the situation?
Do you love her?
In light of the answer to the last question, what are your LIMITS to what you will do to be with her?
How old are you, how old is she?

keyser_soze

Also, dependant on location, would you talk with a counselor regarding this, with her if possible?

Ted Hoffman

Thanks brighid,
I think that was a brilliant post you gave right there. Thanks a lot I agree with everything that you said.

I talked to her yesterday (via phone) - she has been at a very remote place where I couldnt get phone network (southern Sudan) - she is still at a remote place but at least we can now talk.
She too has decided its bad that we stay apart like this and said we have to find a way out. She said she doesnt want to go back there anymore and I told her I will help her get another job and will support her while we are looking for it.

brighid, what you said there about her being independent is very true and I appreciate that you did so - perhaps I will share your post with her. My mother depended 100% on my dad and when he got his heart attack and stroke, she was left with many children with no job and of course we get no support from the government. It was rough.

Tempering our needs with what is right of course is the challenge we as humans have - even in the face of personal experience. Balancing short term needs with long term ones becomes even tougher especially when it comes to satisfying both of them. When my needs/ desires are perceived as a threat to her independence and self-worth as an individual, that sure throws a spanner in the works. Poor communication hampers things even further. I obviously have a lot to learn - but there is definitely a lot of hope for me and her - our love is still strong.

That thing about if I lose her, I lose her truthfully - is something I need to talk to her about. Especially per church wedding - she wants it even though she knows I am an atheist and that getting to participate in a church wedding might involve me being dishonest with some people. She sees it as me asserting my atheism where I can be flexible - for her.

Keyser,
You asked lots of questions, some I might not answer coz I am a bit uncomfortable about answering them. But I will try.

We are both 27 - she is a month older. She is working away because of the nature of her job - she studied public health - she does anthropometric tests and carries out nutrition surveys among starving populations - of course these starving people are almost always in dry, almost uninhabitable and remote locations. The nature of her job is that its related to humanitarian aid - nutritionwise. I am a trainer (a manager) in IT. A big wedding is not necessary. What we are planning will actually be quite small - but still expensive (my yardstick being my poor family background). When she comes, we will find a way of making it leaner. Most of the pressure she is picking from her sisters and relatives - who aren't contributing a dime. Top it with the cost of honeymoon and it becomes quite costly.
I have plenty of dependants and soon I will be starting my masters too - that limits my ability to finance this wedding with ease. OTOH, I am perfectly content with tying the knot at an AG's office with the mandatory witnesses. I also see expenses on a wedding as a waste of money (my frugal family background perhaps) because we could use that money to start our marriage - buy a car - get a mortgage etc. Of course she disagrees.

I have no problem either way. I am willing to go for it - if it will make her happy, I figure its worthwhile.

I can't relocate. I am earning more than her and I have dependants. She is working on contract - not fully employed - so my terms of employment have more job security.

I live near her family (for a year now - pure coincidence by the way - but I will be moving soon), but no close relationship with them yet and I havent formally met her parents. They are still muling over the uncomfortable idea of a man from another tribe marrying their daughter. Plan to meet them soon as possible.
I have met everyone else in her family.

Best alternative is, she quits the job, and together we try and get her another job. The way I see it, taking a job because its been offered is allowing our choices to be dictated by our environment and that way, we introduce an element of uncertainty into our lives - we become victims of our environment/situations. We have to try and take control and that might involve sacrificing some things. Her main fear is that she might take long to get another job. I need to reassure her on that point because so far, I have been using logic to tackle the issue - not using tact.
Much as brighids points above hold (about a woman needing financial independence), I don't see transitory dependence on ones partner as eternal subjugation to dependence on them. We need to help each other and that might involve yielding and being in a position to need help. If we both hold our grounds, we will just be two financially independent people. Emotional closeness and companionship is needed in a relationship - and long periods of separation - brought about by this kind of job, undermine this. I have seen hitherto "perfect" families (people with teenage kids) have their families wrecked by this kind of separation. Of course there are those that survive - but I think its something to be avoided at all costs - especially by a young couple like us with hormones all churning. Its not a small issue purely because of the human condition.

This should be a starting point - we can compromise for now knowing clearly that our goal is to each have financial independence. I need to build trust and assure her and not seem to grab her hand and pull her in the direction I think we should move. Because she clearly has her mind and is not about to let a man show her what is right - what she should do. Buffman gave me some insight into the dynamics of our kind of relationship - she is shy, smaller and somewhat quiet. That brings out my maleness and I come out confident - thinking I can get her into my territory - then it hits me that she is not a pushover. And I find myself thrown in a loop...the predictability I anticipated becomes evanescent. With societal pressure of respecting and admiring dominant men, it becomes tricky. Especially when the man cant discern the blurred line between loss of control and loss of self. And the woman fails to discern the difference between acceptance/submission and subjugation/enslavement.

A balance can be struck because obsession with this "perceived" independence is what results in femininism (forgive me if I am wrong) and the man is then seen as an adversary - or one who wants to dominate, not as a partner and friend that can be relied on. To some extent, I think thats also her (unspoken) fear - that I want to be in control by weakening her - hence her guardedness and digging her feet in and refusing to budge. And she hates the idea of being a housewife (heh, heh, heh carrer woman!). Which is ok. The main point is to stop seeing our ideals as mutually exclusive (black and white) and be willing to let down our guards and be vulnerable. So this "independent woman" mindset and perhaps what she thinks is the means of securing this "perceived" independence might need redressing somewhat. I keep saying perceived because we will always need each other. Chasing money, using money, and going through the motions of "work" and changing the definitions of success and personal fulfilment could be, IMHO, an illusory escape from our human desires and the challenges inherent in meeting them - compromising, yielding, sharing, being vulnerable, accomodating etc etc. But I doubt that we can ever emancipate ourselves fully from the trappings of our primal desires and instincts specifically the need for the company (consortment) of a close member of the opposite sex. We, as opposite sexes simply have to work things out whatever the circumstances. This involves trust and commitment. I think we have reasonably good quantities of those in our relationship. As brighid has said, its about compromising, and meeting halfway.

And I am glad about the first signs that our relationship is over the phase where it was just another example of the timeless struggle between men and women. And I thing we are approaching common ground now. My intention is to get it and secure it admist all the changes that will take place.

I love her and as it is, I think I have gone to great lengths to keep this relationship going.

The limits I would go to be with her are reasonable.

What do you have in mind?

HelenM

That's neat that she wants to be closer to you. It's great to know she is bothered by the distance also.

Those details will need working out but I would think the two of you will be able to do that. It's a big step forward if you can live closer to each other (so it seems to me, anyway)

Do you have enough money between you that you can manage if it does take her a while to get a new job?

But you're right to note that sometimes reassurance is what someone needs, more than logic .

I agree. Actually I've been financially dependent on my husband for 10 years because he works and I don't.

I agree that the separation is not good.

As for the dependence issue, that's really for the two fo you to work out. You could each be financially independent and still have a close relationship. Or you could take advantage of being a team and say "Right now I have the job so I'll support us until you get another one". I know lots of people who've had one partner work to support the other through, say, medical school. I see nothing wrong with that!

And maybe it won't be longer term, if she wants to quit when she has kids. But maybe it will. The point is not to push her into something she's unhappy with. And likewise, you need the freedom to do what you need to, to be happy. Or the relationship isn't going to work. But you need to do it in a way that doesn't betray the relationship, of course. And she needs to be happy in a way that doesn't make engagement near-impossible for you, which sounds like it means being closer together geographically. But since it seems that that's going to happen, that's wonderful.

Basically, yes. There are women who want men to do that. Maybe she even was one of them once. But it sounds like she isn't now and yes, you need to respect that. There are times when your strength and ability to do that will be very valuable but, this is not the way to use it, imo.

Or...that brings out what your idea of maleness is.

But actually I think it can take more strength to hang back and let another person make their own decisions, uncoerced.

As I was saying, your strength is a valuable thing but to be used only as appropriate, imo.

Yes - but, I think you're smart and strong enough to overcome societal pressure . And you probably love her partly because she is very strong too, in her own way. As frustrating as that may be at times

Absolutely.

If she has fears about what you might desire to do re: controlling her then I hope you'll make every effort to show her that's not your desire. I'm sure you want to use your strength in ways that are to her benefit but that wouldn't be one of them. And if she stops being afraid it will be easier for her to 'let you be you'.

I'd say things took a very positive turn with the phone call. You sound much more hopeful - with good reason - and that's great.

When two smart, strong, stubborn people are in a relationship together there are bound to be challenges and struggles. These are not normal but abnormal.

You could think of it this way: in those situations, it's a great triumph when you can achieve a loving, working, partnership!

Best wishes to you as always, IM

Helen

keyser_soze

Congratulations IM, you are an adult. That is adult logic, and adult responsibility. Unfortunately, she appears to not be as grown as you, but that will change. The fact that in face of the economic hardships, she wants the "barbie" wedding(in reality, a minister can marry you on his back porch...I have seen it done a number of times) is telling. But be happy, it soon passes as the climate of marriage tends to grow people fast, and practicality will soon be the order of the day. I am happy for you that she has decided to return, and I am even more glad that you posed it correctly to her. I think you two should have a wonderful life together, and I admire her nature to help(her job is an offering of herself to the world, and a very kind gesture in total. She is a GOOD woman, she just needs to mature a bit.)

It is necessary to give her the proper rein and allow her to run with it, just look over her and try to suggest subtly over time the changes you need to see within the marriage and she will change. As men, we rarely change, but women tend to change to adapt to us. It is hardly fair, but you will each change enough that happiness is a given between you two. It's just hard in the beginning, and when talk of marriage starts up, well...it is rough going until about 4 months after the wedding. But then you can enjoy your labours, and start building a proud family over the ensuing years.

Congratulations again, on the mature choice.

William

Ted Hoffman

In my experience, giving the other person free room to make these kinds of decisions, without interfering is the MOST difficult thing. Its the most difficult thing I have ever had to do.

People who control their spouses, I think, do so to secure a predictable life that can ensure their interests are taken care of. Letting my SO make her decision meant giving up control; and giving up control exposed my interests to threats - she could do all she wanted. What if she decides to serve her interests only? Believe me, its so difficult to accept and realize that loss of control is not loss of self.

Its really frightening and at first, one feels so powerless.
But its the best way and as soon as we give it (the power) up, we get it.

Indeed, as is said by lao Tzu in Tao Te Ching:

The tao does nothing and desires nothing.
And in doing nothing, it does everything.

Thanks for your kind words Helen and Keyser. Helen about "what I perceive as maleness" I think you are right. But I think its in the nature of the male psyche to be territorial and to seek to be dominant (whereas women are supposed to be able to attract the males - by being "mysterious" and attractive). Even as I grew up, it was only by winning and being agressive that I stayed ahead and came on top - it becomes system of operation and thought. And it becomes tough to shed off - especially when that system is challenged by a woman (forgive my chauvinism) - the African man is supposed to be in total control of his wife. Being a man is about taking control and keeping it. Its only after some refinement and maturity and realizing its a different ball game with different rules that a man can let go of the reigns and relax. And it involved pain for me. I was at emotional infancy even as I was shaving my beards!

Believe me, I have found it to be the most frightening and powerless thing to do. Its like standing blindfolded before a firing squad at first - like something painful is going to happen...anytime...

And even as I let go, I keep checking to see whether all is okay. When I will reach that stage when I feel no compulsion to preside over the decisions she makes (this type) or seek to influence her decisions to serve my interests, to be able to love her without thinking of myself first, I will have reached where I want to be.

keyser, I am moved by your words. I feel like I have a big brother in you. Thanks.

keyser_soze

You are most welcome, pm me any time you need someone to talk with, or any of us here. I am pleased that someone could learn from my mistakes, as I did. Unfortunately it was after the fact...and I only wish that someone with some common sense had sat me down and talked to me when I was at my most vulnerable.