Theli

That's good, you should question what you belive.
I hope you stick around.

Ron Singh

I know that whether there is a "Christian" God, or a "Muslim" God, any pious individual would make it into "heaven". Heaven isn't a place of clouds and angels with halos. It's a state of mind, and a unity with God. I personally have a hard time beleiving in a God with human characteristics. I beleive that meditation will help you become closer to a higher consciousness. God is everything, but religion is just part of the details. When I first doubted the existence of God, I looked for atheism and theistic responses to it. If I know that God exists, then the rest is just childs play. I strive to be a moral, loving, helpful, and pious person. I know that I will most likely join God in the "kingdom of heaven", but such a monumental doubt etched my mind. I am very confident in the lord now.
I am Sikh because well my parents were and I was raised that way. After further analyses, I consider this one of the most profound blessings of my life. It is a very rational, freethinking, scientific, and peaceful religion. Oddly enough, I was enlightened of this by an atheist somewhere at <a href="http://www.faithfreedom.org." target="_blank">www.faithfreedom.org.</a>
What is my personal, rational reason for beleiving in God? This is a hard question to answer. I wouldn't base my life on some coincidences, but my dad has lost his job three times over the last few years (silicon valley .COM lay offs), every time after six months, we held a prayer at the local temple for help. Every single time, a company called my dad for work. Sure this is a coincidence, and isn't something I should base my faith on. My life has been short, I'm only fifteen years old. I beleive that God created the Universe, sure you could challence me on the Unmoved Mover arguement, or the First Cause business, but I have my own theories. In my mind I have this whole thesis on how all religions are of a this primal essence of Godliness, but are skewed by fallible humans. Over the summer, I think I will dedicate my time to post it over here at the infidel board. Nevertheless, God "feels" right, atheists might call this irrational or stupid. I would too, if it weren't such a penetrating, profound concept. My most vivid experience of God was one that happened about four months ago. I am an insomniac. I have slept about twelve hours in a week before. I go to school, and am very tired. One night, I lay in my bed, calm and comfortable. I knew I wouldn't be able to go to sleep. I started meditating, while lying down.
That night I felt something I have never felt before. Like surges of lightning crossing my head, I had a life changing experience. I could feel some sort of sublime energy or force, tingling in the inner recesses of my head. I calmed down and continued. That night, I slept the sleep of my life. Well it's dinner time, maybe sometime I can give you a more concise reason. Thankyou, and GOD BLESS .

The Dark Lord

If any of you have seen Jim Huber's web site (http://www.jhuger.com), you'll know what I'm talking about...

Here's a simple counter-arguement for Pascal's wager.

The problems with assessing this wager is that the costs are finite, and the rewards/consequences are infinite... that is, the cost is your finite life (on earth, if you wish), and the rewards/consequences are eternal bliss/punishment.

However, as people have pointed out in this thread, which religion do you choose? There are approximately one billion each of Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, and Hindu; another billion with some other religion; and another billion with no religion. So, do you choose to worship Allah, or some cult deity worshipped by four people in a cemetery at midnight whilst sacrificing young goats?

Also, the cost is not as low as you theists think. There are monetary contributions (can we say catholicism?), people are dying because of their religious beliefs, both voluntarily and oppresively (Catholic views on sex control, the Taliban, etc.)

Also, to illustrate the irresponsibility of Pascal's wager, you must realise that whenever you gamble, you should bet responsibly. Using Jim's example... say you have a wager in which you roll a single die. If it comes up a six, you get 10,000. If it comes up one through five, you pay 1,000. So the chances of winning are 1:6, and the payoff is 10:1. Pretty nice, huh? But what if you only have a couple thousand dollars? Do you take the risk? What if you need those to pay your rent? If so, betting would not be responsible. Atheists see this as the only life we have, and to wager it would be irresponsible.

emotional

</strong>

I agree. No amount of evidence can ever convince those who are swayed. So I, not knowing which side evidence is on, have decided on atheism because I f***ing hate that God of the theistic religions.

</strong>

Glory and splendor of the earth, yes, but then you spoil the whole thing in telling us it's merely a show set up for the inflated ego of an invisible creator! This is sick! All this, just for God to say "look how great I am". Cursed be your God!

</strong>

Ha! You bring exactly the example that Dawkins refuted in Blind Watchmaker...

</strong>

Of course there is truth in that Sennacherib sieged Jerusalem and had to lift the siege. No dispute about that, or other historical facts. Where the Bible can't be relied upon, however, is those parts where it tells about miracles and God's intervention. This is totally false.

</strong>

I pity you.

</strong>

And all who believe otherwise burn in hell. Happy art thou indeed!

</strong>

I knew you had to have some incentive here. I wonder: would there be any theists without the carrot of heaven and stick of hell? I think not.

</strong>

And I am more than compelled to vomit when I hear this garbage.

</strong>

You do have to defend it when you commit atrocities in its name.

</strong>

Incentives again. There would really be no theists in the world were it not for the system of reward and punishment!

</strong>

Unworthiness?! That f**ker commanded genocide and slavery in his book, and you feel unworthy?! Even a poisonous snake is more worthy than your evil God.

</strong>

Blood doesn't make you clean, it just stains your clothes in red.

</strong>

Who cares about that selfish question of how I'm gonna get my butt seated in heaven? Can't you do good things without the meandering figure of God with his heaven and hell overshadowing you?

</strong>

Pascal's Wager. Oh my gosh! Eternity is a long time to be wrong... about Muhammad, or Guru Nanak, or Shogi Rabbani, or any other vendors of an exclusive "way, truth and life".

I've made up my mind: if there is such a being who tortures people in eternity for not doing as he says - such a Great Hitler In The Sky - then I'm not going to wait one single second of my limited life worshipping that fiend.

I shall "pray" for you that you may see the light and stop worshipping this satanic deity. Worship the trees and the stones, they're much more worthy than this evil God.

wordsmyth

If more theists thought like this, the world wouldn't be in the mess it is today.

I can't stress enough how important it is for people whether theist, atheist or agnostic to learn about both sides of the coin... I have no problem with people who disagree with my views, but I have a BIG problem with people who disagree just to disagree.

Most theists disagree with atheists purely out of hand without actually learning what it is they are disagreeing with and I've seen a few atheists who are guilty of the same.

If your interest in learning why we don't believe is sincere, we will be more than happy to give you some insight into why we feel this way. If you're here for some friendly debate be forewarned that its unlikely you have an argument we haven't heard and put to rest a thousand times before.

Nevertheless, I'd like to welcome you to the II forums and hope to see you post more often.

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: wordsmyth ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Don't go away Boone! We're always happy to have theists around. Just elevate your level of discourse is all you need to do. You might read the articles in our library -- see the link at the top of the page -- and post questions or comments you have. Hope you enjoy your stay on our forums, and aren't daunted by the number and variety of responses to you. That can be a bit disconcerting.

Vorkosigan

Easy Be

I wouldn't usually reply to a post like this but sikh you've raised my eyebrow.

This really caught me off gaurd. It's so strange, because I feel exactly the opposite. As a christian I was told that atheists are wrong, immoral, destined to hell, and devil worshippers. When I came here I realized that most christians definition of atheists is completely absurd. I became an atheist on my own I never intended on being one it just came to me. I think if you open your mind atheism comes to you.
What makes you quite so sure? I would love to see exactly how you KNOW this.
This is too ironic, thats my definition of atheism.
So then what do you base your faith on?
What made you think this was God? I have felt a similiar experience one night before falling a sleep I felt my body and my mind were disconnected and my mind was floating up. This was the greatest feeling of my life and it lasted about 3 seconds. Well I have to eat I'll finish the rest of my post later.

Asha'man

Hmm, you must be praying incorrectly. Or to the wrong God.

I’ve had three companies go bankrupt out from under my feet in the last two years. Every time, the entire development team has gotten laid off. However, I keep getting calls for work, and have never spent more than four months without work. I don’t pray at all! What a coincidence!

“Nothing fails like prayer….”

Ron Singh

That's ironic, it's exactly what I'de expect coming form a Christian. I consider the message of Jesus Christ rather noble, but bogged down by the church, his apostles, and the Bible. Sometimes, you have to look past the illusion of lies to see what the truth was really meant to be. Not that I'm trying to convert you or anything.

This is where my personal theistic brand, Sikhism, and my own personal logic comes into play. Oh yes, a theist can have logic too! God isn't a old bearded fourty year old Yankee's fan up in the clouds. As an infinite being, I would hardly think that God would care whether you followed Christ, Nanak, or Abraham. This is trivial. Generally speaking, we monotheists all worhip the same God, but we just misperceive him. Like a finger pointing to the moon, we need to know that our fingers are to some degree bent. Would God really care if I ket kosher? Would God really care if I wore a turban? The essence and core of most religions is based upon the same concept. The rest is of details.

Base a 'faith' on evidence? Hard to say. I accept some truths upon their philisophical weight. With these truths, I know there is a God, I know that there is a way. I know that my way is Sikhism. Perhaps a disguisting reply according to your standards, but such a thing is hard to put into words. In the near future, I plan to do such a thing, in detail, if I can. Sorry.

I don't know this for sure. Perhaps it is just a coincidence. I still hold my faith in God, with my 'faith'. Other evidences I have are just reinforcements. This reminds me to read up on Thomas Reid's proof of God.

Ron Singh

Devnet, Guru Nanak did not preach an exclusive way of life. Actually it is the opposite, he said that people should follow the religion that they find suits them best. He founded quite a tolerating religion. Never did he suggest imposing punishment upon those unbelievers. Also, Sikhs believe in transmigration, so the eternity business is also inaccurate. I myself have a little wonder about afterlife. I do not believe in a GoToHellForever type of a situation, but something mroe forgiving and with more rationality. But then the idea of transmigration might not fit this. Perhaps later in life I will find a way. I'm still a 15yearoldworkinprogress. Shalom, Devnet.