Seraphim

"Sure ... gravitation and electromagnetism and the earth going around the sun etc ... all of them are just "theories". They still work ... all the time. If they didn't ... the theory wouldn't be valid anymore "

My reply : You are comparing this half-baked theories to those dealing with gravitation and electromagnestism? Theories on gravitation and electromagnetism can be proven by mathematical model and Quantum Physics. Even so the evidence is not physical, but it can be shown by creating models that WORKS.

Your theory on NDE doesn't fit anything. You (and few others) start the debate by trying to show that NDE and OBE happens because of stress. When someone asked why people who are relaxed and in state of Meditation have them, you guys change stories, this NDE is because of some stuff the dying cells in brain produce which mixed and misintrepreted along the way.

It could be logical IF such theory is proven by scientists who calculate amount of that stuff produce by dying cells in the brain OR why calculating the amount of cells died in a brain by using drugs such as Ketamine. When I asked whether anyone done so, it's another change in the story. This time, the greatest theory of them all - SH*T happens (pardon my french).

"To each their own ... if you respond to the truth with sarcasm ... thats totally upto you "

My reply : IF that is truth, dear, I rather be ignorant.
Your so-called Truth has more holes than Swiss Cheese. And for your information, I'm one to believe that there is no such thing of something JUST happening. If something happens, there is a cause for it to happen and an aftermate. Something don't just happen like that - NOT to a complex structure like a Human Brain.

"I said "objective" evidence ... not anecdotal evidence."

My reply : Which means what? Example please (something in the back of my mind says this is going to be another waste of time).

Oxymoron

</strong>

Because....?

I don't question if I have a soul, either. The concept seems absurd to me, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that souls exist.

You might not have noticed, but brains (hardware, like the TV) are complex and minds (software) are pretty sophisticated, too. Why they behave in the way they do is a fascinating area of research. Ask, by all means, why any one aspect of their behaviour occurs. But be prepared for either a long wait, a very long and complex answer, or both.

There is, similarly, absolutely no evidence whatsoever for an afterlife. I'm not sure in any case what this sentence means in any case. An NDE doesn't prove the existence of an afterlife, just that the simulator in between someone's ears went a bit doolally after being starved of oxygen.

Ramen

We are blind to the actual knowledge of an existence or non-existence of an afterlife. Dying is the way to know for sure if there is an afterlife. Can a man who is born blind reason his way into knowing what it's like to see?

And NDE's don't disprove an afterlife either, (which was the point I was trying to make that you were unsure of). There either is an afterlife or isn't.

Oxymoron

Ah, Ok, I think we're agreed here then

ps418

Thank you for admitting this upfront and without equivocation. It saves me alot of time, which would otherwise have been wasted discussing the many faulty assumptions you have made.

Patrick

Psycho Economist

Brain cells dying spasmodically release glutamate (sorry, I spelled it wrong) with the effect of killing off neighboring brain cells (this is the current thrust of <a href="http://www.ohsu.edu/nsi/faculty/rossid/rossid.htm" target="_blank">research into stroke treatment</a>). This is not directly related to NDE's. I didn't mean to imply that it was. (I think the fact that I replied to your post instead of the post you were replying to may have been a little misleading. I apologize.)

My point, first time around, was that a severely injured brain kills itself off (forgive the anthropormorphization) and that might be a good thing by evolutionary standards. My second point was that until a neuron dies (however it dies...) it'll go about its business, receiving chemical signals and passing them on in a way that creates the subjective experiences of sight and sound.

Near death experiences are simply [semi-]conscious interpretations of abnormal brain activity. There's no teleology behind the existance of NDE's, the experience is just an extension of the way the neurons handle the regular pattern of chemical signals... I think we agree on this.

I've probably <a href="http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Using_Ketamine_to_Induce_the_Near-Death_Experience.9260.shtml" target="_blank">seen the same references</a> about using ketamine to induce NDE halucinations you have.

crocodile deathroll

Sure NDEs are no evidence. They do not convince me the are a window onto to world in the hearafter. I treat NDEs as a kind of a red herring that distracts the whole issue.

Seraphim

By Psycho Economist :

"Brain cells dying spasmodically release glutamate (sorry, I spelled it wrong) with the effect of killing off neighboring brain cells (this is the current thrust of research into stroke treatment). This is not directly related to NDE's. I didn't mean to imply that it was. (I think the fact that I replied to your post instead of the post you were replying to may have been a little misleading. I apologize.)"

My Reply : Thank You for Wasting my time.

However, before I continue on what will be another waste of time unless I fix your MISCONCEPTION, I suggest you reread a few time the last link you have provided (the one with reference on NDEs) because the information inside contradict with your statement above.

Glutamate is not produced by dying cells, it is produced by the brain to prevent the cells from dying due to lack of oxygen.

And in the future, READ before asking someone else read whatever you want them to read.

ps418

I read both of them a couple of times. They were quite interesting. They contradict you, not Psychoeconomist.

That's incorrect, and is contradicted by the links provider by PsychoEconomist.

What the first article says is that "glutamate (the main excitatory transmitter in the brain) is the primary trigger of cell death during brain ischemia. Glutamate induced cell death (excitotoxicity) results from the ionic fluxes generated by glutamate receptors, particularly the calcium influx through NMDA receptor channels. . . the main cause of glutamate release at the start of stroke is the reversal of the normal direction of operation of glutamate transporters."

Apparently you have misread [or should I say MISREAD] the abstract on the second link, the one disussing ketamine-induced NDE's. It states that ketamine or ketamine-like chemicals can block NMDA receptors, and hence prevent nerve cell death due to over-activation of NMDA receptors by glutamate. It is not the glutamate that prevents cell death.

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]</p>

thebeave

The way that I've always thought about NDE's is to use the analogy of a computer when for the supply voltage is dropping. When you start dropping the voltage from 120 VAC down towards around 100 VAC, the computer will start behaving erratically, illogically and unpredictably. Maybe it will go black. Maybe it will go white. Maybe it will produce garbagey text. Maybe it will display photos of your old dead relatives stored on your hard drive! This is because it is not being supplied with the voltage levels that it was designed for. The engineers who designed the computer could really care less how it behaves during this abnormal condition (except to say, ensure the hard drive doesn't permanently destroy itself in the process) when its voltage is no longer meeting its design requirements. Whatever the machine does,it just does. I think the brain kinda does the same thing. If you start to cut off the oxygenated blood supply to the brain to levels for which it was not "designed" (I hate to use that word) for, you cannot expect that it will function normally, hence the rather bizzare NDE's that are reported sometimes. I don't see much point in evolution creating some sort of logical, coherent shutdown of your brain, IF YOU ARE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY! Keep in mind that it is only recently that we've been able to bring back to life people on the verge of death as a result of modern medicine. A hundred years ago, there probably was no such thing as NDEs as everyone who was that close to death went ahead and just croaked. Evolution didn't really plan thousands of years ago for us to be able to experience NDEs and discuss the hows and whys of it.

I've speculated that whether you experience NDEs or not depends on your own particular brain chemistry, rate of blood and/or oxygen deprivation while "dying", accompanying head injury, or maybe even whether you are one of the so-called "fantasy prone" individuals (e.g. many of the Christians visiting this BBS).