Andrew_theist

Hi Max,

There nothing wrong with commenting. I was stating a preference is all.

madmax2976

Okay. You seemed to be implying more than that with your reference to my having as much time as you did and so forth.

In any case, I'm looking forward to some discussion here and even some constructive criticism of my own posts.

Good luck to you with the vote.

Max

Andrew_theist

To turtonm

In response to:

That for many, maybe most atheists that it is not so much a lack of belief in theism as it is an unshakable, unmovable conviction in the truth of naturalism that is the real issue at hand. Now the discussion can be argued on an even keel. I admire and appreciate Max for being willing to argue this on a level playing field. I think Max can attest it is much more difficult to argue two competing belief systems than merely defending a ‘lack of belief’.

Mike responded,

Andrew, atheism is not a belief system. You've had this explained to you about a hundred times, so it is difficult for me to believe you can't understand it. Atheists can be Confucians, Buddhists, pantheists, total skeptics, and many other things besides. Besides atheism, what do these groups have in common? You have confused atheism with metaphysical naturalism. All metaphysical naturalists are atheists, but not all atheists are metaphysical naturalists. Many atheists -- like my Buddhist wife, for example -- believe in the supernatural. My wife is an atheist who thinks naturalism is a stupid idea. How do you account for her in this erroneous "atheism-is-a-belief-system" idea you keep spouting?

If you bother to read before you comment you would see I said as much. Do you see the first sentence? Do you do this because you don’t have enough time to read or just to annoy me?

The debate was about naturalism not atheism. As you say all naturalists are atheists and that is who my arguments pertained to. If a person merely practices methodological naturalism that does not make it a belief system. If they think naturalism is true then it is a belief system.

And regardless of your taunts I still maintain that atheism is a belief system. It is a belief that God doesn’t exist. Unless you know God doesn’t exist in which case it is a fact statement. Theists come in all stripes and colors also. They only have one central idea there is a God. Atheists have one central idea, there is no God. Then there are those who claim to have a lack of belief in God but they are not atheists they are skeptics and doubters as I have repeatedly shown you from objective sources but as you point out there is little can be done about willful ignorance.

For sprited but friendly discussion Please visit <a href="http://pub22.ezboard.com/bgwnn" target="_blank">Challenging Atheism</a>

Vorkosigan

If you bother to read before you comment you would see I said as much. Do you see the first sentence? Do you do this because you don’t have enough time to read or just to annoy me?

No, because many is essentially a meaningless dodge, and most is incorrect. Do you have any data on what "atheists" believe? In any case, your presentation is pervaded with your assumptions.

The debate was about naturalism not atheism. As you say all naturalists are atheists and that is who my arguments pertained to. If a person merely practices methodological naturalism that does not make it a belief system. If they think naturalism is true then it is a belief system.

"metaphysical naturalism" is a philosophical statement about the nature of reality. It is not a "system," many otherwise incompatible belief systems incorporate it as one aspect of their beliefs (for example, Communism and Ayn Rand's philosophy both incorporate metaphysical naturalism, but are in stark opposition to one another).

And regardless of your taunts I still maintain that atheism is a belief system.

Yes, I've noticed....so for pete's sake, Andrew, instead of this trollish insistence, why don't you go ahead and give us several paragraphs describing the "system" that unites all atheists. For once. After being asked many times.

It is a belief that God doesn’t exist.

That's one belief so far. Can you describe the system we all adhere to?

Unless you know God doesn’t exist in which case it is a fact statement. Theists come in all stripes and colors also. They only have one central idea there is a God.

Andrew, they believe in gods, plural. Most theists, including Christians, are polytheists of one flavor or another. Maybe some of the more austere forms of Deism, Fideism, or Judaism, or some African religions truly believe only in one god.

Atheists have one central idea, there is no God.

Huh? No. It is not a central idea of Buddhism that there is no god. That is merely fallout from its central beliefs. It is not a central idea of Confucianism or pantheism -- in those too, is merely fallout from other beliefs.

Mind you, for a skeptic like myself, atheism is fallout from a belief in metaphysical naturalism. It is not a central belief. I don't believe in any supernatural entities, of which gods are one. I also don't believe in pixies, lead-into-gold, or pyramid power. This idea that "atheism" is a polar opposite of your beliefs is wrong-headed. For most atheists their lack of belief in gods is fallout from some other, more fundamental belief. And then there are agnostic atheists, a whole 'nother class.

Then there are those who claim to have a lack of belief in God but they are not atheists they are skeptics and doubters as I have repeatedly shown you from objective sources but as you point out there is little can be done about willful ignorance.

Well, you got the last one right. I don't suppose we'll ever hear about the system that unites all us atheists, will we?

Michael

Andrew_theist

If you bother to read before you comment you would see I said as much. Do you see the first sentence? Do you do this because you don’t have enough time to read or just to annoy me?

No, because many is essentially a meaningless dodge, and most is incorrect.

The correct answer is sorry Andrew I jumped to a conclusion.

And my response is, no problem Mike.

Well, you got the last one right. I don't suppose we'll ever hear about the system that unites all us atheists, will we?

There is no system that unites theists yet you have no problem characterizing theism as a belief system do you? So why should atheism be above it all?

Draygomb

<a href="http://pub22.ezboard.com/fgwnnfrm21.showMessage?topicID=24.topic" target="_blank">Express Your Opinion Of The Debate In The Poll On Andrew's Site</a>

Vorkosigan

There is no system that unites theists yet you have no problem characterizing theism as a belief system do you? So why should atheism be above it all?

On the contrary, Andrew, if you read a couple of posts above, where I make this point about religions ranging from Greek to Kikuyu.

• Here's another error. Which theism? Hindu? Greek? Christian? Islamic? Sunn'i? Shi'ite? Mormon? Catholic? Shinto? Folk Taoist? Kikuyu? They're all different, you know. In order to establish the truth of your theistic belief, you must refute not only atheism, but all other theisms as well.

This is a well-known point of mine, that I have made in arguments at CARM and elsewhere, that there is no such thing as "theism" as such. Theistic arguments always support a particular theism.

I guess this is just another dodge. I am still waiting now, after dozens of posts in two forums, for you to say what system unites all atheists.

You are simply never going to tell us. Because there isn't one.

Michael

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

Andrew_theist

I guess this is just another dodge. I am still waiting now, after dozens of posts in two forums, for you to say what system unites all atheists.

You are simply never going to tell us. Because there isn't one.

The system that unites atheists is the belief there is no God. With the exception of that they may not hold anything in common. Why do atheists of many diverging views gather at this board? Not because of what they disagree on but because of what they do agree on. As for the other forum you left your comments and ran away.

Datheron

Andrew_theist,

Alas, Andrew, I think you should re-read a few previous posts, as Turton has already made his point, and it looks like you're unaware of what he's referring to. I'm refraining from quoting the direct statement, for I don't want to steal Turton's thunder.

lpetrich

And how is that supposed to be some sort of grandiose philosophical system?

One could say that all those who reject Hellenic paganism are united in their rejection of the existence of the deities of Mt. Olympus, and that non-Olympianism is therefore some sort of grandiose philosophical system.