Bible Humper

Hello Tercel

Hmm, I didn't know that you don't believe that the OT is accurate about Yahweh. I suppose I should have known that, since you seem to be a nice guy judging by what you have posted before, and these beliefs are reflections of the believer's own morals and values.


Are you saying that according to the bible, there is no need to be a christian in order to get into heaven?

David Mathews shares this pleasant doctrine with you, but it is not supported by scripture. This has been shown by quoting chapter and verse in one of David's threads.

I know that you and David don't hold the biblical view, because both of you are caring individuals who would not want it to be true.

P.S. If I was wrong, it would have been more productive for you to show me my error rather than give a dismissively sarcastic response. Thanks.

Ojuice5001

Suppose someone prays for forgiveness after death, with no more or less sincerity than a person praying before death. Does he get out of hell? If not, why does the fact of having died change anything? I just can't see a good reason to think that death as such changes the answer to the question, "If someone repents, should God forgive them?"

If you say yes, what do you make of the fact that Christianity has traditionally taught otherwise?

Tercel

Hmm, my criteria are not really what they do -ie pray for forgiveness- but what they are, ie a better person.
The answer to your question would depend heavily on how much change is possible after death, to which I don't really know the answer. I would give a hesistant "yes" to your question therefore.

Which denomination are you referring to precisely, and what do they teach?

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Tercel

Thanks.
I try to be nice... generally...

I believe that is the most consistent interpretation of the Bible, yes. It's not universally supported, but it definitely finds significant Biblical support.

He does? I thought he was a fundamentalist (!) perhaps I need to read more carefully in future...

Perhaps. Sarcastic comments do good work IMO, and they're certainly far more fun to write than "I disagree".

Veil of Fire

"No one approaches the father but through me." - Jesus.

Apparently someone hasn't actually read their own holy book.

Ojuice5001

Tercel,

Good answer. It's nice to know there are Christians who have sensible theologies. I suppose I was mainly thinking of Catholicism, which teaches that souls can be released from purgatory, but not from hell. The Catholic Church has a lot of advantages, but the pre-Vatican views on the afterlife are not one of them.

Tercel

Funny you should mention that verse. There's a thread in BC&A which has been hijacked by Bede and now my me dealing with this (and relating to the subject of this thread too):
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000437" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000437</a>
(it begins with a random argument about Greek, scroll down a bit)

excreationist

Hi Tercel,
Well in the books of Moses, Moses generally hears the voice of Yahweh on his own - I'm not sure if anyone else ever heard Yahweh at that time. And there were no other witnesses in that burning bush incident. Those stories could be based on a great conquerer who genuinely had hallucinations. Half of the killing was done by Moses's men, at the command of God... it seems to always say that God spoke to Moses (rather than speaking to the crowds directly)... and the stone tablets were chizeled while Moses was alone up the mountain for a few weeks. The penalty for those who went up the mountain was death. (Exodus 19:12)
So anyway, I think it could have been based on an actual person who had hallucinations who made the Israelites conquer other peoples.
Now about the reasons why you should believe that those events occured: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4306apol_v3n21994.asp" target="_blank">Answers In Genesis - The Authority of Scripture</a>
Though that is a creationist site, most of that article doesn't directly talk about young-earth creationism.
From that link:
What do you think Stalin would need to do to get into Heaven? He was an atheist I think... would he just need to regret what he did as he is dying on his death-bed? Is that enough? Do you think people need to feel ashamed because they aren't perfect? Do you think it is necessary to believe in a monotheistic god to get into Heaven? Do superstitious tribal beliefs in some animal spirits qualify you?

Tercel

I disagree that we can say Christ took them literally. I do not see how it is possible to know what Christ thought about them. He mentioned them, yes: But did he think of them as stories with a moral, or as literal fact? I do not see how we can tell.

To be willing to receive God's love and forgiveness.

I do not think beliefs are related to salvation.
I agree with the Eastern Orthodox Church that salvation or damnation is our own reaction to God's love which will shine on everyone alike.

The Light of Truth, God's Energy, God's grace which will fall on men unhindered by corrupt conditions in the Day of Judgment, will be the same to all men. There will be no distinction whatever. All the difference lies in those who receive, not in Him Who gives. The sun shines on healthy and diseased eyes alike, without any distinction. Healthy eyes enjoy light and because of it see clearly the beauty which surrounds them. Diseased eyes feel pain, they hurt, suffer, and want to hide from this same light which brings such great happiness to those who have healthy eyes. -Dr. Kalomiros (Orthodox Theologian)

Stephen T-B

Exclusivity - I’ve made this point elsewhere and since it fascinates me I hope you’ll indulge me as I raise it again.
It strikes me that the religions which originate among the Semitic peoples - Judaism, Christianity and Islam – are peculiarly exclusive:
The Jews were / are god’s Chosen People;
the Christians followed that tradition but altered it slightly so that they were god’s chosen;
the Muslims did the same, but now they were god’s chosen.
Each of these - but most spectacularly the Christians - refined the notion, so now there are several Jewish sects all believing they are god’s chosen; there are at least two Islamic sects (Sunni and Shia) which believe they are god’s chosen, and there are 550,002 (roughly - I haven’t counted them all) Christian sects / denominations which believe they are god’s chosen.
Now, the point about being god’s chosen is that it does not allow for ANYONE else to be god’s chosen. By being exclusive, these religions are therefore excluding, and I think this to be a distinguishing characteristic.
(Tercel, I think, takes a somewhat heretical stance; he's certainly well beyond the pale as far as a number of Christians I've know are concerned.)

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen T-B ]</p>