fishbulb

How and why are two different questions. Our cosmologists and biologists have done a pretty good job of describing how the universe got from its origins to its present state.

If you are asking what happened at the very beginning, I don't know, and nobody knows. I am prefectly comfortable with not knowing; I feel no need to invent an explanation. But perhaps one day we will be able to look farther into the past than we are presently able. Perhaps not.

If you are asking what purpose the universe serves, I think you have answered your own question above. If the universe was not created, it follow that it was not created for any purpose.

In my opinion, a two-dimensional object cannot encompas a three or four-dimensional object.

The universe didn't create itself, so it was caused by something outside of what we understand to be the Universe, it just appeared without any external causes or forces acting upon it, or it always existed. It would seem to be impossible to determine which of these possibilities is the case, and not particularly important in any case.

Deny is a loaded term; it implies that you are refusing to admit what you know is true. Atheists are just people who aren't convinced that there is such a thing as god.

I suspect these forums exist to allow like-minded people to share experiences in a world that is not always friendly to their views, as well as to debate and discuss issues related to belief and religion. At least, that is what I see them used for.

It does not matter, but I would rather not have to live under the tyrranny of many of the gods people believe in.

I don't quite get the question. Random genetic mutation is generally thought to be the mechanism by which evolution operates, though it is much more complicated than just random changes in gene sequences.

We exist because things turned out that way. You answered your own question in #1. If one does not believe in a creator, then one cannot believe that there is any conscious design behind our existence.

My loved ones are not worthless to me. Love and worthlessness are contradictory. Whether or not there is a God who intends to send my loved ones to Hell does not change how I feel about them.

There are, of course, biological reasons for why I feel the way I do, but that doesn't change the fact that I feel that way.

Wrong inflicts harm or cruelty. Right leads to peace and prosperity. I know I am right because harm and cruelty are painful and peace and prosperity are pleasurable.

Loaded question. Let's see... I could renounce my worldly possessions, break all ties with my family and friends, build a nuclear bomb, and then detonate it over a large city in an act of holy war against sinful unbelievers.

No. Science and religion have nothing to do with one another, at least as far as science is concerned.

Mageth

Welcome, Whispers.

1) I assume the majority of you do not believe in a creator. What do you believe in if anything with regards to how we are here?

I don't "believe" anything in regards to how we are here. It remains a mystery, and may always do so.

2) in your opinion, if you drew a circle around everything in the universe, would the origin of how we got here come from within or from outside of the circle? An old question I know, but I am curious as to how you answer this?

Since the universe may be described as "everything there is", in one sense I think "how we got here" comes from within the circle as the circle encloses everything. But then, again I don't claim to know.

3) Why is this forum here in the first place? Is it specifically to deny the existence of a creator? If so, why bother?

It's here, perhaps, to provide atheists, agnostics and indeed all of whatever particular worldview or religious inclination to gather and chat about life, the universe and everything. Part of its stated mission is to promote "metaphysical naturalism". From believers' perspective, that's often misinterpreted as "denying the existence of a creator", but it's not the forum's intent to deny a creator, but to discuss and defend why some lack belief in a creator.

4) If you had the choice, would you prefer there to actually be a divine creator or not? If not, then what would you prefer?

I have no preference in regards to this. But the "If not, then what would you prefer?" is a little odd. If I preferred there was no divine creator, then obviously I'd prefer there was not a divine creator.

5) Concerning the theory of evolution, what do you believe things are evolving from, at root?

From ancestral life forms, of course. "In the beginning", there was initially some first replicating organic molecule, I reckon, that got the ball rolling.

6) Do you feel that we are literally just a fluke of nature/evolution?

We're a product of nature/evolution. I view life as an emergent property of the universe, and our consciousness as an emergent property of life, and thus of the universe.

7) How do you attach significance to your loved ones, if there is no creator or ultimate plan for us? If we are literally just flukes, than are we worthless? if not how not?

Do you really think one could only love one's loved ones if they were the product of a creator and were part of some ultimate plan? I recognize the humanity, the commonality, in my loved ones, and indeed in all of humanity. I, as a human, like to be loved, and I like to reciprocate with love. One doesn't need a creator or a plan to love.

8) How do you define right and wrong? How do you know you are right in your definitions?

Right is not doing or preventing harm, not causing or alleviating pain, or minimizing harm and pain, and also doing "good" - i.e. benefitting yourself and others (while minimizing harm and pain). Wrong is causing or not preventing preventable harm or pain, in yourself or others. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a good basic rule to apply in one's life.

9) What is the worst that can happen if you believe in a god?

The worst? You could believe in the wrong god and wind up in its version of hell, I reckon. And, as others have stated, one could take innocent lives with you.

10) Does the theory of evolution, mean that there is no creator?

No. The theory of evolution does not address the existence or non-existence of a creator. It does trash creation myths, such as those found in the bible.

Salmon of Doubt

Welcome! These are some very good questions.

1) I assume the majority of you do not believe in a creator. What do you believe in if anything with regards to how we are here?

I think that humans evolved just like every other creature on Earth, and that life itself is a fluke chance.

2) in your opinion, if you drew a circle around everything in the universe, would the origin of how we got here come from within or from outside of the circle? An old question I know, but I am curious as to how you answer this?

Inside. I like the idea of the fluctuating quantum particle, or that the universe just always existed, maybe in a sequence of big bangs/big crunches, one after the other. The idea of a universe coming into existence without any outside help is much more likely to me than the idea of a God coming into existence without outside help.

3) Why is this forum here in the first place? Is it specifically to deny the existence of a creator? If so, why bother?

I feel it's here to give atheists a chance to discuss issues and get answers to their own questions. They can then use the things they've learned when a theist challenges them to defend atheism. I would say that I felt the ultimate aim of these forums is deconversion of Christians, and theists to atheism.

4) If you had the choice, would you prefer there to actually be a divine creator or not? If not, then what would you prefer?

I would prefer there to be a creator if she was obvious, loving, logical, and could guarantee me that I could live forever in my idea of heaven after I died. My ideal creator would interfere regularly in the lives of humans, and there would be no need for these forums, as her existence would be obvious. She would preach love, tolerance, and scientific understanding, and she would explain her own origins to us in simple terms that science could investigate. No-one would ever suffer eternal punishment, no matter what they did. Unfortunately I see no evidence of her, so, like other fantasies, I sadly conclude that she doesn't exist.

5) Concerning the theory of evolution, what do you believe things are evolving from, at root?

What do you mean?

6) Do you feel that we are literally just a fluke of nature/evolution?

Yes indeedy.

7) How do you attach significance to your loved ones, if there is no creator or ultimate plan for us? If we are literally just flukes, than are we worthless? if not how not?

'Worth' is hard to define. I continue to live because I enjoy it, and don't want to die. I expect everyone else to honor my life so I get to continue living, and I extend the same courtesy to others.

8) How do you define right and wrong? How do you know you are right in your definitions?

I define right and wrong by my own criteria, which are subject to change when I learn more about a subject. I know I am right when my opinions cause some people to be happy, and no-one to be harmed. My definition of harm is also flexible, and there are very few absolutes.

9) What is the worst that can happen if you believe in a god?

I could always pick the wrong one, and end up tortured for eternity by the correct one. I could also lose any idea of truth by giving up the scientific method. How else can I determine what is true or not? Or, like someone else said, I could get all fundamentalist, and go round killing people for not believing in the same God as me.

10) Does the theory of evolution, mean that there is no creator?

Not necessarily, but it casts doubt on any gods that claim they created things by other means.

To answer rational BAC, I would say it would depend on your friend's debating style. If he insulted people, I expect things could get quite heated. If they could convey what they meant in a clear intelligent manner, I expect they would have no problems.

Jamie_L

Short answer: I don't know how we are here, or even if the question is meaningful. Ultimately, existence doesn't make sense, and believing in a creator doesn't change that. Ultimately, something "just is". It seems to me that the simplest explanation is: The universe "just is".

The universe appears to be a closed system. The origin of life, therefore, came from inside the universe. If there is anything outside the universe, it does not appear to have any interaction with things inside the universe. As such, I wonder if it even makes sense to suppose anything is outside the universe.

Fellowship. Community. Entertainment. Activism. You name it. Different folks come here for different reasons. I don't think it's specifically to deny the existence of a creator, though that is part of it. Why bother? Different reasons, I suppose. A lot of crazy and dangerous philosophy seems to stem from belief in a creator. Further, it's just generally not a good idea for most people in a culture to make their most important decisions based on erroneous information or irrational philosophies.

If the creator was a swell guy, who would look after me and those I care about, then yeah. I'd like that.

Well, I don't devote much time to studying the latest theories. My cursory understanding is that life started as little more than replicating proteins.

I don't like implying that naturalism is "random". It's not random. It follows all the laws of nature and there is a process. It just isn't controlled by any kind of intelligent, guiding force. Life and speciation happened without the exertion of intelligent will. That does not, however, make it random.

In the grand scheme of things, everything is pretty much pointless. In the here and now, however, things have meaning. Ice cream tastes good not because it will have some special significane 1 million years from now, but because it pleases me now. Life is important to me because I'm alive and I like being alive. My loved ones are important because I care for them now, and they make my life better now.

Mostly, it was defined for me by my parents. Since I started seriously thinking about issues of morality, I've tried to develop a reasoned approach. Generally, morality is a construct to help people live together. I'm still working my way through to a more detailed rational morality, though I think I'm almost there. Check out the morality forum to seek more detailed answers to these questions. Generally, I feel morality has to do with the fulfillment of human desires (right) and thwarting of human desires (wrong).

You can be convinced to fly an airplane into a building, or do any number of other irrational things. Belief in god tends to be accompanyied by discouragement of critical thinking, and lack of critical thinking makes one vulnerable to all kinds of things.

No. It means species were not intantaneously created. It does seem to imply no influence by a creator in the development of species, including human beings and human consciousness/intelligence. It says nothing, however, about the creation of the universe at large.

CaptainOfOuterSpace

1) Over billions of years, we evolved from self-replicating molecules.

Misconception. A circle cannot be drawn around the universe, since space is infinite. The universe is all there is.

3) As you can see, the forum boils with activity, ideas, conversations, and perspectives. Its purpose is just that.

False dichotomy. Just about the only "divine creator" we can safely rule out is the Hebrew sky faerie. I personally don't have a preference for or against a divine creator. Based on evidence, though, no such creator exists.

5) Self-replicating molecules (which we can recreate and observe today)

6) Yes.

Appeal to emotion. Why do you need a creator to give you a plan? What's wrong with being worthless?

False dichotomy. However, my best guess would be biologically. I don't kill people because I wouldn't appreciate it if someone killed me. The most important thing to us is life. The second most important thing is the quality of life. If a certain factor negatively affects the quality of life, then it is "wrong."

9) You can become a dictator and exterminate 6 million Jews. You can attend flight school and fly a commercial airliner into a building. You can start a cult of 1000 people and tell them all to commit suicide. Anything can happen!

False dichotomy.

MortalWombat

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Spaz

As far as the entire universe, I don't know, I haven't researched much in that area. As for humans, we're here for the same reason every other living thing is, evolution.

As I said in question one, I'm not sure, however I feel it would make more sense to come from the inside.

Of course not just to deny the exitence of a creator, I'm here to learn about religion and science.

If it's a happy loving god guy, then I'd prefer that, it's much better than an indifferent universe.

Chemicals, to be unspecific

A product, yes, not from chance really. I don't see why our existence requires more.

Worthless to what? Certainly not worthless to ourselves or our planet, we can help each other and help the planet as well. Loved ones are significant because I want them to be significant, people have emotional needs.

If it physically hurts somebody then it's wrong, but that does not mean that certain "wrong" things aren't necessary. Murder is wrong, but it some psycho is attacking you or your family, then they may have to be dealt with that way. There is no right or wrong in subjective definitions.

A waste of the one life that you have.

No.

Goliath

Whispers,

I hold no beliefs whatsoever regarding the origin of the universe or the beginning of life.

Unknown.

This forum is a place where many issues--atheism and religion amongst them--can be discussed in an environment that is (mostly) friendly to atheists.

Furthermore, I doubt that any atheists here deny any god whatsoever, since no atheist believes that any gods exist. How can I deny something, when I don't believe that said thing exists?

I would not only prefer if there were no gods, but I would love to see a world without religion of any kind.

I do not understand the question.

No.

It's unbelievably simple: I see them as significant, whence they are significant to me. Why do so many theists have trouble understanding this?

They are (at least mostly) subjectively held, and often checked against society.

If the god is the xian god, and if I were shown a proof of its existence, I would dedicate my life to one (and only one) purpose: the eradication of xianity.

Unknown.

Sincerely,

Goliath

topane

I'm a product of sexual reproduction.

If the universe is everything, then the answer would come from inside the circle. If the universe is a part of a larger multiverse, the answer may lie outside. I wouldn't even pretend to know that answer.

A place non-theists can meet and discuss stuff.

What would be different if there was a divine creator?

Bob, the primordial amoeba.

No.

My loved ones are significant because of love. A creator has nothing to do with my feelings. If we are "flukes", that doesn't make us worthless. Life is what you make of it - you don't need a creator to give your life meaning.

My morals and ethics are a product of society, how I was raised, and life experience.

I kill innocent people in the name of my god.

No. Evolution could have been guided by a creator.

beth

1) I assume the majority of you do not believe in a creator. What do you believe in if anything with regards to how we are here?

I believe that I am here through a reproductive act. My consciousness is as it is because of my brain and it's ability to think.

2) in your opinion, if you drew a circle around everything in the universe, would the origin of how we got here come from within or from outside of the circle? An old question I know, but I am curious as to how you answer this?

I am sure it was from within, but I am no scientist....

3) Why is this forum here in the first place? I think it is a place for atheist activism.

It is here, in my opinion, to help provide a community of atheists and non-theists.

Is it specifically to deny the existence of a creator? If so, why bother?

No. i think it is here si we can discuss our beliefs without reprocussions from the world around us.

4) If you had the choice, would you prefer there to actually be a divine creator or not? If not, then what would you prefer?

I would prefer one, but not the Christian or Muslem gods.

5) Concerning the theory of evolution, what do you believe things are evolving from, at root?

don't know

6) Do you feel that we are literally just a fluke of nature/evolution?

Yes

7) How do you attach significance to your loved ones, if there is no creator or ultimate plan for us?

I try to protect their lives and make sure they try to live their lives in full.

If we are literally just flukes, than are we worthless? if not how not?

No we are not worthless. we are unique individuals. Each life has the capability to impact those around us as well as future generations. Each life is valuable to me.



8) How do you define right and wrong? How do you know you are right in your definitions?

By the laws around me... by the amount of harm my actions can cause... by my conscience. I don't know, but I think they are, at least for me and those around me.

9) What is the worst that can happen if you believe in a god?

I could get sucked into the lies again...

10) Does the theory of evolution, mean that there is no creator?

No.