Philosoft

An infinite series of causes; or, more metaphysically, a causal chain that lacks a "first cause."

JubalsCall

Thanks JenniferD for the passages, but I looked them up and they don't really say the earth is flat.

Here are the verse and come explaination:

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

The Bible is not totally literal. It uses symbolism. Why couldn't the writer say that just to mean all over the earth?

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

This verse goes for a round earth. "Circle of the earth" seems to imply the earth being round.

Ezekiel 7:2
"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says to the land of Israel: The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land.

Same as Isaiah 11:12

Daniel 2:35
Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Again sumbolism, but why could a "huge mountain" not fill the "whole earth"?

Daniel 4:10-11
These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. [11] The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.

Symbolish yet again. Most of these passages are dreams and prophecy.

Daniel 4:20
The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth,

Part of the same dream.

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

This might be just refering to the world that Jesus knew. I'd have to say this is the most legitimate one. Will take a little more time to think about and explore.

Hope that helps. And I'll have to look into the last one.

Thanks
Tibbs

JubalsCall

Thanks for the answer, but how is that a real argument? How is that possible?

Tibbs

WWSD

I echo the sentiments that I have never seen any convincing evidence for the existence of a god.

And, for myself to be an atheist, I must not deny anything, I must simply lack a god belief. The I am an a-theist. Without theism.

However, you will never catch me saying "there is no god" as I am not that type of atheist.


As for where everything came from: beats me. But, as was said, that proves nothing.

Also, why do we have to come from anything at all?

Philosoft

Who said anything about an argument? If I'm not mistaken, gcameron was lamenting the fact that some cosmological arguments entail infinite regress.
Hmm. I might ask the same thing about a non-physical, eternal, conscious creator-type-thing.

Mageth

darkfrog:

I bookmarked that site as I definitely want to go through all of that, but please sum up for the benefit of this discussion how you disagree with the notion that nothing can be gained in the effect that was not also in the cause?

I'm going to assume you're intention is defending the cosmological First Cause argument here. Correct me if I'm wrong. In so assuming, I'll take the liberty cutting to the chase and quote from one of the articles (by Theodore Schick Jr.) in the library, with a little editing:

What was Einstein's Theory......
"For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction."

Give credit where credit is due. That's Newton's Third Law of Motion. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that that was an honest mistake and not an indication of your knowledge of physics.

I believe that is relevant here as the reaction cannot be greater than the action upon it. That contradicts the laws of science.

Well, that's a nice assumption that we've learned we can make in Newtonian Physics within our universe. But the Theory of Relativity (truly creditable to Einstein), and more so Quantum Theory (partially creditable to Einstein, though others were involved) and modern astrophysics (e.g. big bang theory), one might say, render the Newtonian assumtions (e.g. the Laws of Motion) moot (or indicates that they break down) under some conditions (particularly, at a singularity).

Further, I fail to see where "the reaction cannot be greater than the action upon it" is relevant to the existence of god, if that's what you're getting at. One might possibly use it to defend that there must have been some equal or greater action that caused, if you will, the universe to pop into existence; defining that causative action as "god", however, is not a conclusion that that argument logically leads directly to. Rather, one might arbitrarily define "god" as that action.

Magus55

JenD, what does 4 quarters have to do with the earth being flat? In fact quarters leads one to believe its referring to a sphere - Cut an orange in 4 equal pieces - southwest, south east, north west, north east quadrants.

And we say the 4 corners of the earth in regular day speech - does that mean we think the Earth is flat?

JubalsCall

Thanks for all telling me why you don't believe in a diety. Almost every atheist doesn't believe in a god because there is no eviednce that has lead you to believe in one(or that's what most of you said). But I have a major problem with that answer.
Here it is:

The very word atheist means "one who denies the existence of God." Many here from what I've heard have said they just have a lack of belief in a god. But a lack in belief of something is saying that you don't believe in it. It can either be one way or the other.

When deciding about deities there are three major choices to start with:
One, not to belief in one at all (Atheism)
Two, don't make a desion on the subject (Agnosism)
Third, Belief in a higher power or powers (Theism)

If you think the evidence doesn't show that there is a god/gods, then you either have to say that you do not believe in one or that you have not made a desion becasue you don't have all the information.

And when you say you lack faith in a god, you are saying that you don't believe in one.

Tibbs

K

JubalsCall:

Do you believe in Thor? If not, why not?

Ensign Steve

Do you honestly believe that's what the people who wrote it meant? I can't have been, as it was not common knowledge at the time that the earth was spherical. Those who write it at the time were mistaken, and I don't fault them for that. I just don't believe that it is the "word of god" because a god would have known the true, spherical, nature of the earth.

Quote:

And we say the 4 corners of the earth in regular day speech - does that mean we think the Earth is flat?

I do not say the 4 corners of the earth in regular day speach ever. Those who do are using a coloquialism directly from the bible.