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Old 08-17-2002, 03:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by ansarthemystic:
<strong>
You are assuming that Allah(SWT) would not speak about its greatness if the female gender pronoum was used instead. Again, pure speculation. Whether Allah(SWT) is female or not does not take away from its greatness, or its expounding on its gratness. Although it may sound like a logical contradiction, Allah(SWT) is neither male or female, yet BOTH male and female. Therefore I use the word "it". You also forget that the ancients used "he" to mean male and female, and that "men" was used to mean Man and WO-man. They knew that Allah(SWT) had no physical gender. Personally I prefer "Shim" instead of "him" but that's another story in itself.
</strong>

The equation of Allah in the Qur'an to a flesh and blood king is uncanny: malik (king), rabb (Lord). The obedience he demands of men and women is likened to the obedience demanded by husbands of their wives. Remember what the Qur'an says, "Man is better than woman in that Allah has preferred one over the other".

Quote:
<strong>
g-ds are a symbol for nature,I agree, but we take it further, Nature is not All, but appears to be in Man's limited perception.
</strong>

There is no evidence for anything apart from the natural realm. Wherever we look, we find that naturalistic explanations to phenomena work far better than supernaturalistic ones. The universe is anti-supernatural and anti-miracle to its very core, beginning from the true genesis account (biological evolution) up to the lives and fates of every creature.

Quote:
<strong>
ALLAH(SWT) DOES NOT demand Jihad, in your understanding of it, but does allow mankind his earthly role in eliminating corruption and evil in the earth. Is there something wrong with the idea that it is the human's responsibility to eliminate corruption and evil in the earth?
</strong>

The idea of corruption and evil on earth always happen to coincide with what the spokesman for God disliked. Whence is the idea that worshipping idols is corruption? Whom does it do harm? I dare say, the sacrifice of multitudes of sheep heads on Id Al-AdHa is harmful. A good example of harm done to many generations to come is the story of Ibrahim's sacrifice of his son (whichever of the two you may believe it was). God was teaching mankind to value his order (to kill one's own son) above human life!

Quote:
<strong>
Allah does demand hijab for women, but you don't understand it.
</strong>

What is hijaab if not a veil? What's there to understand? The plain "Word of Allah" tells women to "hide their charms". Nothing deep or symbolic here, unless you like to interpret the whole of the Qur'an in a symbolic way.

Quote:
<strong>
And what's wrong with Allah(SWT) telling Muhammad(SAW) to smash idols?
</strong>

It fosters hate between people. It is insensitivity towards the feeling of others. It would be the same as throwing the Qur'an into the fire.

Quote:
<strong>
An idol can not Help you in anything
</strong>

Neither can Allah; but the idols exist while Allah does not. It is makes much more sense to worship trees and stones and stars than to worship God, for the trees and stones and stars exist whereas God does not. Anyway, if you worship something because it can be of help to you, then you're being very selfish.

Quote:
<strong>
and eventually the keeping of idols will distract people from Allah(SWT) as they continually believe and worship a MATERIAL representation of Allah(SWT).
</strong>

When I worship trees and stones and stars, I do not worship a material representation of divinity, I worship divinity itself. Nature is God, and unlike the theists who worship an invisible mystic puff of smoke, I do not any mediator between me and God. For many people, smashing idols is the same as demolishing a mosque for Muslims.

Ansar, your religion does not have a monopoly on holiness. For me, the trees and stones and stars are holy, and if you don't respect that, then don't be surprised when I don't respect your religion. Islam's equating of "other religion" with "evil and corruption" is a bane.
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Old 08-17-2002, 05:38 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by lobstertrap:
<strong>Everyone hears in the news that "Islam is a religion of peace," and that is all great and wonderful, but the Koran also says to kill all the "infidels," or non-Muslim people.

Now, what do the "peace-loving" Muslims say to that? If they're peaceful, when does the time come to stop being peaceful and kill all the infidels?</strong>
Well, it seems that there are a few muslims who claim to be peace loving, but unfortunately those
few are supressed and fear for their safety
in Islamic states.
Why?
Well lets look a a few quotes from the leadership
of Islam.

“We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: "‘The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them…'"
- - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001

“The Jews are the Jews... They are all liars… They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah… it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them, kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them… The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere…”
- - The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000

"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews."
- - Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001

“The Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers over the descendants of the monkeys and pigs and with their annihilation.”
- - Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La’afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001

**Quotes from PA religious leaders regarding territorial compromise:
“We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre….we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic.” [Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities.]
- - Sheikh Ikrima Sabri - The Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine on Palestinian Television, 11 January 2001

“Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget [the currently Israeli cities of] Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time…”
- - Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000

“All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized.”
- - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000

“We exaggerate when we say ‘peace’... what we are speaking about is ‘Hudna’, a temporary ceasefire."
-- Arab Knesset Member Abdel Maleh Dahamshe, Palestinian Television, 1 September 2000

**What they Teach in School
"Patriotism in Islam: In Islam, it is not improper for a Muslim to love his homeland. To the contrary, Islam encourages this, and established its defense as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine... Islam considers anyone who is killed while defending [the land] a martyr of the highest order...”
- - Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 67-68, September 2000

I dont think these quotes are showing an Islamic state with the intentions of peaceful coexistence,
with non-muslims.
The fact is Muslims put Jews and christians in the same catagory and believe that they must wage
a war against the infidels and destroy them.

I get a little weary of hearing how Islam does not promote violence and oppression.
It is a muslims duty to Allah to convert everyone on this planet to Islam, and if they do not submit they should be killed.

Not all muslims are terrorists, but the leadership IS and they have made their intentions well known to the rest of the world.
So it really doesnt matter if the majority of Muslims are loving, tolerant, peaceful people
because they are not running the Islamic states and beating their followers into submission.
Wolf


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Old 08-17-2002, 05:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Proof that Allah(SWT) makes np mistakes, they are numerous but we can start with existence itself, unless of course you believe that that too is just an accident?
The existence of the universe proves nothing more than the universe exists. It's ironic that Christians use "all this" as proof of their God. It would also appear that the muslims do the same thing.

If you get a chance Ansar, here's a quick read:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195102754/qid%3D1029592525/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-0893437-1407959" target="_blank">A Dictionary of Creation Myths</a>

I'd be curious to know how you rule out all those other Gods?
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Old 08-17-2002, 10:20 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
<strong>

The existence of the universe proves nothing more than the universe exists. It's ironic that Christians use "all this" as proof of their God. It would also appear that the muslims do the same thing.

If you get a chance Ansar, here's a quick read:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195102754/qid%3D1029592525/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-0893437-1407959" target="_blank">A Dictionary of Creation Myths</a>

I'd be curious to know how you rule out all those other Gods?</strong>
sorry, but when I say existence I mean life, since therte are things in existence that are not alive. What about life?

peace and blessings
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Old 08-17-2002, 10:27 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corona688:
<strong>

That is sarcasm, pretty obvious sarcasm too, imho. It's used alot here; you should learn how to recognize it.

He's not blaming Allah, or saying he believes he exists, he's saying that Allah's supposed perfectness is not in alignment with reality.</strong>
that is your opinion about Allah's perfection. Equating Allah's perfection with humanity's imperfection just seems wrong to me

peace and blessings
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Old 08-17-2002, 10:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
<strong>

The existence of the universe proves nothing more than the universe exists. It's ironic that Christians use "all this" as proof of their God. It would also appear that the muslims do the same thing.

If you get a chance Ansar, here's a quick read:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195102754/qid%3D1029592525/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-0893437-1407959" target="_blank">A Dictionary of Creation Myths</a>

I'd be curious to know how you rule out all those other Gods?</strong>
I would have to say that all those other g-ds are not g-ds but thought to be g-ds by man in his limited perception. Also it could very well be man's interpretative attempt to reach an understanding of the "divine"

peace and blessings
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Old 08-17-2002, 12:29 PM   #37
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YOU WROTE:The equation of Allah in the Qur'an to a flesh and blood king is uncanny: malik (king), rabb (Lord). The obedience he demands of men and women is likened to the obedience demanded by husbands of their wives. Remember what the Qur'an says, "Man is better than woman in that Allah has preferred one over the other".

Allah(SWT) describes his spiritual relationship with creation with the words rabb and malik to give us an earthly understanding. Please show me the verse where Allah(SWT)says it prefers men over women, and men are better than women

YOU WROTE:There is no evidence for anything apart from the natural realm. Wherever we look, we find that naturalistic explanations to phenomena work far better than supernaturalistic ones. The universe is anti-supernatural and anti-miracle to its very core, beginning from the true genesis account (biological evolution) up to the lives and fates of every creature.

I am not a believer in supernature. Naturalistic explanations intrigue me, but they do not explain all that there is to be observed. We have yet to observe everything, therefore we can NOT so readily conclude that nature is everything.And what is this true genesis account? If you read the Masorestic text of the Tanakh, you will see that the bible supports evolution, but the English translation has allowed creationists to argue futilely over something(evolution) that is fact and is supported by their own book, the bible. If you want I will show what the Hebrew Tanakh says about evolution.

YOU WROTE:The idea of corruption and evil on earth always happen to coincide with what the spokesman for God disliked. Whence is the idea that worshipping idols is corruption? Whom does it do harm? I dare say, the sacrifice of multitudes of sheep heads on Id Al-AdHa is harmful. A good example of harm done to many generations to come is the story of Ibrahim's sacrifice of his son (whichever of the two you may believe it was). God was teaching mankind to value his order (to kill one's own son) above human life!

Yes it is true that historically corruption has been defined by g-d's supposed spokesman.But will you deny that murder, rape, prostitution, slavey, persecution, child abuse, religious oppression and intolerance, poverty, starvation, limited acces to education, and evil are corruption?Islam says they are!

Idol worshipping hurts the idloater in the long run, not other people. Hurting someone's feeling by smashing idols is a sujective observation.Your concept of worship that you project on me is not Islamic. Worship includes doing gOod things(Ibada) and RECOGNIZING THE EXISTENCE OF THE DIVINE. Eid-Al-Adha is a coomemoration, and all parts of the goat or sheep are used. If not, then THIS is a corruption. The killing of animals for the purpose of eating flesh for sustenance is something I do NOT have feelings for or against. It appears that the genotype of some individuals reqires that they consume external sources of animal protein. Others have no need and can survive on a vegetarian diet. Oh well! As far as Ibrahim(AS) sacrifice of ISAAC goes, he did not kill him, and the lesson you think is being is taught(g-d's order supercedes human life!)is contrary to the other lesson that the author of EXISTENCE IS more important than EXISTANT things. Sounds cruel, but only if you ignore Allah's other attributes:love, mercy,justice.Allah(SWT) would not have let Ibrahim kill his son.

YOU WROTE:What is hijaab if not a veil? What's there to understand? The plain "Word of Allah" tells women to "hide their charms". Nothing deep or symbolic here, unless you like to interpret the whole of the Qur'an in a symbolic way.

Hijab means veil, and can be translated as covering or screen. How is the word used in the quran and how does it apply to the woman's dress code?

from SUBMISSION.ORG:FIRST OFF,

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not aggress; God dislikes the aggressors." 5:87

"Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to God?" 10:59

3 RULES ABOUT DRESS CODE:
FIRST RULE : THE BEST GARMENT

[7:26] "O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31

THIRD RULE : LENGTHEN YOUR GARMENTS

The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in

33:59

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 33:59

HISTORY OF HIJAB:THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN

"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran??

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

While many Muslims call "Hijab", an Islamic dress code, they completely ignore the fact that, Hijab as a dress code has nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with QURAN.

"Hijab" or veil can be traced back to early civilizations. It can be found in early and late Roman and Greek art. The evidence can be seen in archeological discoveries whether in pottery fragments, paintings or recorded civil laws. In Greco-Roman culture, both women and men wore head covering in religious contexts. The tradition of wearing the veil (by women) and the headcover (by men) was then adopted by the Jews who wrote it in the Talmud (Talmud equals the Hadiths and Sunna, neither are the words of God) then the Christians adopted the same. A well respected Rabbi once explained to a group of Jewish young women, "We do not find a direct command in the Torah mandating that women cover their heads, but we do know that this has been the continuing custom for thousands of years." After the prophet Muhammad's death , the writers of the hadith books adopted and encouraged the ancient tradition of head covering. Hadith book' writers took after the Jews as they did with many other traditions , and alleged them to the prophet since the Quran did not command it.

Any student of the Jewish traditions or religious books will see that head cover for the Jewish woman (and men) has been encouraged by the Rabbis and religious leaders. Observant Jewish women still cover their heads most of the time and specially in the synagogues, weddings, and religious festivities.

Christian women cover their heads in many religious occasions while the nuns cover their heads all the time.

As we can expect the traditional Arabs, of all religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims used to wear head cover, or "Hijab," not because of Islam, but because of tradition. In Saudi Arabia, up to this day most of the men cover their heads , not because of Islam but because of tradition.

North Africa is known for its Tribe (Tuareg) that have the Muslim men wearing "Hijab" instead of women. Here the tradition has the hijab in reverse. If wearing Hijab is the sign of the pious and righteous Muslim woman, Mother Teresa would have been the first woman to be counted.

In brief, hijab is a traditional dress and has nothing to do with Islam or religion. In certain areas of the world, men are the ones who wear the hijab while in others the women do.

THE WORD KHIMAR:"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran. Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's.
"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . . . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget. God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair.

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 24:31,

"They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."

This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God. Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "What is necessary".

It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her. Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary.

The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) that can be exaggerated by the movement of the body while walking and not to the artificial ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it. At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna." Striking the feet while walking can emphasize , exaggerate or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized. It is important to remember that striking the feet while walking does not have this effect on the head, hair or face, they are not part of what God calls in this verse the hidden zeena.

YOU WROTE:Neither can Allah; but the idols exist while Allah does not. It is makes much more sense to worship trees and stones and stars than to worship God, for the trees and stones and stars exist whereas God does not. Anyway, if you worship something because it can be of help to you, then you're being very selfish.

This is your opinion. Taking an absolute stance on the existence or non-existence of g-d is not intelligent. Besides I already told you that you attribute to me a definiton of worship that I do not agree with. I challenge you to think of a purely altruistic act.

YOU WROTE:When I worship trees and stones and stars, I do not worship a material representation of divinity, I worship divinity itself. Nature is God, and unlike the theists who worship an invisible mystic puff of smoke, I do not any mediator between me and God. For many people, smashing idols is the same as demolishing a mosque for Muslims.

Ansar, your religion does not have a monopoly on holiness. For me, the trees and stones and stars are holy, and if you don't respect that, then don't be surprised when I don't respect your religion. Islam's equating of "other religion" with "evil and corruption" is a bane.

Once again, your opinion, not fact. In islam we have no mediator. If you don't know it already, idolatry and paganism started b/c man thought he needed a mediator between him and an unknowable, unseen g-d. You deny it, but your worship of Nature is nothing more than you mediator to the Divine. The idea that trees, stones and stars are divinity and not the representation of divinity is speculation hidden by opinion, not fact. Islam does NOT equate other religions with evil, but with corruption of the natural din of mankind.

Allah is holy, and if you see his crations as holy b/c they are manifestations of divinity I do respect that. It seems that it is you that has no respect for my religion, not vice versa. I just simply disagree with it.


peace and blessings




[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: ansarthemystic ]</p>
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Old 08-17-2002, 12:36 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by sighhswolf:
<strong>

Well, it seems that there are a few muslims who claim to be peace loving, but unfortunately those
few are supressed and fear for their safety
in Islamic states.
Why?
Well lets look a a few quotes from the leadership
of Islam.

“We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: "‘The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them…'"
- - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001

“The Jews are the Jews... They are all liars… They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah… it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them, kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them… The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere…”
- - The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000

"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews."
- - Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001

“The Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers over the descendants of the monkeys and pigs and with their annihilation.”
- - Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La’afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001

**Quotes from PA religious leaders regarding territorial compromise:
“We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre….we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic.” [Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities.]
- - Sheikh Ikrima Sabri - The Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine on Palestinian Television, 11 January 2001

“Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget [the currently Israeli cities of] Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time…”
- - Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000

“All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized.”
- - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000

“We exaggerate when we say ‘peace’... what we are speaking about is ‘Hudna’, a temporary ceasefire."
-- Arab Knesset Member Abdel Maleh Dahamshe, Palestinian Television, 1 September 2000

**What they Teach in School
"Patriotism in Islam: In Islam, it is not improper for a Muslim to love his homeland. To the contrary, Islam encourages this, and established its defense as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine... Islam considers anyone who is killed while defending [the land] a martyr of the highest order...”
- - Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 67-68, September 2000

I dont think these quotes are showing an Islamic state with the intentions of peaceful coexistence,
with non-muslims.
The fact is Muslims put Jews and christians in the same catagory and believe that they must wage
a war against the infidels and destroy them.

I get a little weary of hearing how Islam does not promote violence and oppression.
It is a muslims duty to Allah to convert everyone on this planet to Islam, and if they do not submit they should be killed.

Not all muslims are terrorists, but the leadership IS and they have made their intentions well known to the rest of the world.
So it really doesnt matter if the majority of Muslims are loving, tolerant, peaceful people
because they are not running the Islamic states and beating their followers into submission.
Wolf


<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> </strong>
"The fact is Muslims put Jews and christians in the same catagory and believe that they must wage
a war against the infidels and destroy them."

"I get a little weary of hearing how Islam does not promote violence and oppression.
It is a muslims duty to Allah to convert everyone on this planet to Islam, and if they do not submit they should be killed."

You probably grow weary of hearing that Islam is a peaceful religion b/c you think that these qoutes hold truth. Eliminate the misconceptions and you will see the truth. As far as the peaceful Muslims taking over from these oppressive theocratic governments, the process has begun, I assure you, but it will not happen overnight, and unfortunately bloodshed will continue /shrugs/
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Old 08-17-2002, 06:34 PM   #39
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Hijab is just a scarf; the veiling comes from the hadiths.

The terrorists find enough justification for violence in those verse from the Koran:

18:671: 'It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land, (revealed on occasion of the captives of Badr)
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do
they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the
tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm
those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and
whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in
requiting (evil).

[47:4]
" So, when you meet , those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost".
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Old 08-18-2002, 07:23 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by hinduwoman:
<strong>Hijab is just a scarf; the veiling comes from the hadiths.

The terrorists find enough justification for violence in those verse from the Koran:

18:671: 'It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land, (revealed on occasion of the captives of Badr)
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do
they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the
tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm
those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and
whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in
requiting (evil).

47:4]
" So, when you meet , those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost".</strong>
Yes, the hijab is just a scarf, but can be a covering, or a sheet. Hadith sayings contrary to the qur'an are not bibding, morally or otherwise. As far as those verses you mentioned to justify violence......one must be honest and deal with a CORRECT Arabic translation!


YOU WROTE:[18:671: 'It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land, (revealed on occasion of the captives of Badr)

This verse does not exist, or maybe you got the surah and ayah wrong.

YOU WROTE:[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do
they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the
tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I already explained that the Arabic word translated as "fight" has the connotation "strive with", which does not have to indicate violence, and it does not in this case. It indicates(PEACEFUL,OR NON-VIOLENT)struggle to establish Islam in the world. The Jizya tax mentioned in the latter part of the verse is imposed on non-muslims living in a Muslim state ONLY IN TIMES OF WAR("religious" war) to compensate for the fact that military service is NOT required of them, to ensure their protection by the Muslims, and to ensure that they do NOT involve themselves in the war traitorously and treacherously against the Muslims. It was original revealed after certain Jewish tribes in the Hijaz that were former allies of the Prophet(SAW) beacame traitors. Those that use continously, in times of peace like the current Islamist(NOT Islamic)states do so unjustly.

YOU WROTE:[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm
those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and
whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in
requiting (evil).

This verse is incorrectly translated. "Strike off their heads" should be rendered strike above the neck". This idiom means to strike a blow to the head. "Strike off every fingertip" is an idiom meaning strike the hands until all weapons are released from them. Together these two phrases indicate subduing an enemy until he can no longer fight, it does NOT indicate killing them.I see nothing wrong with the rest of the verse.

YOU WROTE:[47:4]
" So, when you meet , those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost".

This verse is grossly mistranslated, destroying all meaning!it should read:

47:4]
" So, when you meet in battle those who disbelieve smite at their necks; then when you have overcome them, make prisoners, and afterwards (set them free) as a favour or for ransom till the war lay down its burden. That(shall be so. And if Allah please,, He would certainly exacted retribution from them,but that he may try some of you by means of others But those who are slain in the Way of Allah, He will never allow their deeds be perish.

As you can see here "when you have overcome them", which is written after smite them at the necks,a phrase I have already explained the meaning of, indicates that there is no killing involved here on the part of the muslim. How to overcome and make prisoner a dead person? It also shows that prisoners should be set free after war is over. And the word "slain" instead of "killed" at the end of the verse is given here to show the difference between murder and killing.

peace and blessings
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