Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BibleBelted · 11-25-2002, 06:23 AM

I really don't feel this is worthy of an "upper" forum, but since Misc. Religion has been moved here, here it is.

I ran across this earlier today. It is called Christian Apologetics in One Lesson from a forum named, without a hint of irony, christianlogic.

It is full of brilliant examples of christian reasoning. Here is a brief excerpt:

Quote:

Toolbox of Questions
When we are going to do some work, it is always a good idea to bring along our toolbox. One of the things we want in our Apologetic toolbox is a good assortment of questions. When used correctly, questions can be effective tools. The right kind of question can act as a gauge to see whether someone is in the mood to talk. A good question can act as a pry bar to open up a closed conversation. If someone happens to react negatively to our questions, then we can always stop asking questions.

A continuous barrage of direct demanding questions can be very taxing on an individual and may border on the rude. So instead of repeating a question which demands much thought and a detailed answer, we may offer a multiple choice.

"What happens when you die?

1) Do you just cease to exist.

2) Are you reincarnated as some other living being.

3) Or do you pass on to a final judgement before your Creator."

And do not forget to follow up with, "how do you know?" Because we are trying to open up our opponent, we need plenty of "How do you know" pry bars in our toolbox. Here are a few:

"How can you be sure that is true?"

"Have you ever wondered what would happen if you were wrong?"

"Are you sure you want to build your life around the certainty of that?"

"How would you prove that that is the case?"

"Have you ever doubted that?"

"Has anyone ever questioned you on that?"

"How did you arrive at that conclusion?"

These are a few good "How do you know" type questions for our toolbox.

When someone redirects the "how do you know" question back on us, then we need a good redirector in our toolbox, like, "What would you accept as evidence?" followed up with, "Why?" Ultimately, you want to drive them to see that everything which they believe is unreliable and self-contradictory, and that there is only one reliable and non-contradictory belief system, and that is the one revealed by God in the Bible.

<a href="http://www.christianlogic.com/articles/logical_defense.htm" target="_blank">A Logical Defense of the Faith</a>

Lots of other goodies, too. Look for "the religion of atheism" and his thoughts on Circular Reasoning. Just amazing.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]</p>

Living Dead Chipmunk · 11-25-2002, 08:10 AM

Standard "score points" debating tactic. Control the Cross-examination period. Make sure you don't have to answer any questions.

Too bad it's not exactly honest.

11-25-2002, 01:54 PM

Too bad they cant answer their own "how do you know" follow ups.

Mageth · 11-25-2002, 02:34 PM

Sure they can. "Goddidit" and "The bah-ble says so" are the usual answers.

BibleBelted · 11-25-2002, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Sure they can. "Goddidit" and "The bah-ble says so" are the usual answers

Mageth, are you sure you're not a closet christian? You seem a little too adept at xian apologetics.

This is from the same piece:

Quote:

VI. The Use of Evidentialism
There are lots of good resources for apologetics, if we know how to use them. Most materials are written from an evidentialist point of view. I believe we must first stand upon the solid ground that the Bible is the Word of God, then argue from that position. By contrast, evidentialists first fight to prove that the Bible is the Word of God. They use evidence from all of the unreliable sources of truth which I mentioned earlier � such as evidence from our senses combined with the scientific method. They argue that man, by reason, can find out God � which essentially places the authority of man�s reason above the authority of God�s word. They begin at the wrong place. They use the wrong evidence as authority. Remember, the bottom line is, "How do you know for sure?" Scripture � the Word of God � is the highest possible authority.

My favorite part -BB

There is no authority higher than the Word of God which can be used to authenticate the Word of God. The only authority which we can use to prove Scripture is Scripture itself. Scripture is self-authenticating. If we use any other evidence, that evidence must necessarily be lower in authority than Scripture. To use a lower authority than Scripture to authenticate Scripture is like using a tone-deaf three-year-old with a kazoo to authenticate the musical compositions of Bach � the authority of the greater is necessarily lowered by the lesser.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]</p>

gilly54 · 11-26-2002, 08:19 PM

Quote:

By contrast, evidentialists first fight to prove that the Bible is the Word of God. They use evidence from all of the unreliable sources of truth which I mentioned earlier ; such as evidence from our senses combined with the scientific method.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me! When I find myself in the position to debate my atheism with a theist, I don't let them get past this point. This "tactic", hasn't failed me yet! I point out that our "COMMON SENSE" is pretty reliable; that innate sense that our brain is telling us something is just not credible, and when backed by the scientific method, instead of "faith", the discussion is usually over.

Gilly

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: gilly54 ]</p>

babelfish · 11-27-2002, 05:01 AM

This piece is a very interesting look inside the brain of a believer. What I learned:

1) Constructing strawmen is a fun and inexpensive hobby, and when completed they are generally easy to knock down with your eyes closed.

2) Circular reasoning is wrong and evil when used by un-believers, but "logical" when used by believers.

3) Atheism is a religion.

4) The author has many acquaintances ("I once knew a man") who are prone to crazy behavior like jumping out of buildings or thinking they are dead.

Thanks for the link Bible Belted. I highly recommend this article to anyone who has ever wondered how seemingly sane people can be such staunch believers in fantasies.

Steven Carr · 11-27-2002, 06:36 AM

'Some people think circular reasoning (also known as begging the question or petitio principii) is false. Not at all. All sound, true and valid reasoning is circular.'

Why doesn't the guy just write 'I am stupid' and save a lot of bandwidth?

Oh, I beg his pardon - he did 'Yes, God does use us in spite of ourselves, and He sometimes blesses us in our stupidity, but that is no argument for stupidity, but only for the mercy and grace and power of God.'

11-27-2002, 07:03 AM

What I want to know is the significance of the dumb-looking dog wearing the deerstalker.

BibleBelted · 11-27-2002, 07:21 AM

Hey, I just went back to look at the stupid dog, and noticed they have a discussion board. The most recent registered member is "bigdickbadboy."

Anyway, I found a page where you can actually: <a href="http://www.christianlogic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=124" target="_blank">Challenge this idiot to a moderated debate!</a>

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11-25-2002, 08:10 AM	#2
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	Standard "score points" debating tactic. Control the Cross-examination period. Make sure you don't have to answer any questions. Too bad it's not exactly honest.

11-25-2002, 01:54 PM	#3
himynameisPwn Guest Posts: n/a	Too bad they cant answer their own "how do you know" follow ups.

11-25-2002, 02:34 PM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Sure they can. "Goddidit" and "The bah-ble says so" are the usual answers.

11-27-2002, 05:01 AM	#7
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	This piece is a very interesting look inside the brain of a believer. What I learned: 1) Constructing strawmen is a fun and inexpensive hobby, and when completed they are generally easy to knock down with your eyes closed. 2) Circular reasoning is wrong and evil when used by un-believers, but "logical" when used by believers. 3) Atheism is a religion. 4) The author has many acquaintances ("I once knew a man") who are prone to crazy behavior like jumping out of buildings or thinking they are dead. Thanks for the link Bible Belted. I highly recommend this article to anyone who has ever wondered how seemingly sane people can be such staunch believers in fantasies.

11-27-2002, 06:36 AM	#8
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	'Some people think circular reasoning (also known as begging the question or petitio principii) is false. Not at all. All sound, true and valid reasoning is circular.' Why doesn't the guy just write 'I am stupid' and save a lot of bandwidth? Oh, I beg his pardon - he did 'Yes, God does use us in spite of ourselves, and He sometimes blesses us in our stupidity, but that is no argument for stupidity, but only for the mercy and grace and power of God.'

11-27-2002, 07:03 AM	#9
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	What I want to know is the significance of the dumb-looking dog wearing the deerstalker.

11-27-2002, 07:21 AM	#10
BibleBelted Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 891	Hey, I just went back to look at the stupid dog, and noticed they have a discussion board. The most recent registered member is "bigdickbadboy." Anyway, I found a page where you can actually: <a href="http://www.christianlogic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=124" target="_blank">Challenge this idiot to a moderated debate!</a>

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