Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 01-08-2003, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Theli
And ofcourse there's the question about what excacly is "subjective". Especially since, in a conversation a smaller part of the consciousness of the single person "merges" into the other person through words and gestures. And ofcourse, could a remote control be refered to as a part of the individual using it?

I think once you subtract all acquired memories from our consciousness it then merges into the consciousness of other people who also have yet to acquire some ensemble of memory, and this is infant or even fetal consciousness. All the consciousness is doing in that group are function like circadian rhythms. Just the things it was genetically programmed to do. Individualized consciousness emerges from our sense of language and conceptualizing objects we observe with the semantics of our language.
When we die was totally lose that semantic ability and we lose this individualized consciousness as it lapses back into oblivion but we regress back to the collective fetal consciousness that made of possible to emerge in this world in the first place.

I think there is a kind of beauty in oblivion because it is nature's way of wiping the slate clean, and restoring symmetry

abe smith · 01-08-2003, 05:43 AM

To be sure, CrocoDeathroll, you have an absolute right to define a word anyhow you wish (This is NOT sarcasm. It is my skeptic'sfree-man's opinion.)
However, given the long and public history/usage of the word >>> "SOUL" in human discussion, my personal opinion is that your particularly-private definition of the term "SOUL" does tend to muddy the waters, dear Person......

Mr. Sammi · 01-08-2003, 09:39 AM

Theli, crocodile deathroll, Abe, excreationist, managalar, Answerer, Amos, John Page, Nyssa, Adrian Selby, and who-ever-else is interested,

I may be in a position to posit SOUL as a confirmed position of being. Soul as a regular concrete visitor from your native lands. Soul is apparent due to itz consistent nature. Yet it seems to be an emergent facet of the human which emerges and solidifies itself due to itz regular appearance on the day and night show.

The soul of the Earth. Not a soul in sight. My aching soul.

What emerged from protons and electrons and various wizzing energies BECAME the soul of the universe, the soul of the Earth.

* * * (not for the weak hearted)
The souls of your parents when they merged became your body (with a bit of science magic). If you were born A reincarnate your baby body would have been initially imbued OR additionally colored by a regular position of mind which added up to SOUL, your incarnate soul. This is a regular birth PLUS a transcendental birth. A double bonus.

* * * (back to philosophy)

I am glad to have a soul to share with.

Sammi Na Boodie (soul NOT ghoul)

Theli · 01-08-2003, 02:04 PM

crocodile deathroll...

Quote:

...consciousness of other people who also have yet to acquire some ensemble of memory, and this is infant or even fetal consciousness.

This would suggest that the essense of consciousness is selfidentification and concept of reality. In other words - information.

Quote:

Individualized consciousness emerges from our sense of language and conceptualizing objects we observe with the semantics of our language.

qeh?
I assume that you don't mean language in a litteral sense. It raises a question though, would a human be conscious in a complete void (+ totally lacking memory)? All in all, there seems to be a large portion of the awareness missing from your model, and that is choice/actions. The idea that a human can beyond observing and storing information also interact with what it observes. I would think that the key to the consciousness lie more in choice than in observating.
Consider the following example.

You stand in an empty room with 2 doors, where your choice guides wich door you will open. That choice is derived from the mood you are in at the moment, aswell as your longterm and short-term memories. From that perspective, knowing all variables involved your choice can be pre-determined. What if you were to be told the outcome (door #1) before even making the choice, would you still be able to choose door#2? If we assume that there is no soul to magicly spawn a choice, then you couldn't. Your choice has already been determined.
So, what happened to you? Why couldn't you choose door #2? This would only suggest that you weren't excacly conscious when you choosed the second time. That the only way we can remain consciousness is when we do not possess full information about our future, as that would make our actions "scripted". The conciousness would be unnecessary.

Mr.Sammi

Regarding the soul, I think that's an ineffective view on the consciousness. I have no reason to believe that the awareness I have/am now is the same as when I was a kid. Both my view on the world and my actions were different from now, I see no actual resemblence what would suggest an induring awareness.

Quote:

What emerged from protons and electrons and various wizzing energies BECAME the soul of the universe, the soul of the Earth.

About the soul of the earth, I just read an article in a science magazine about the effect of human fear and discomfort following 9/11 giving readout on random generators all over the world. And that it would suggest a collective awareness. That humanity as a whole share feelings through a yet undetected medium. Perhaps it is a very early forming of a sixth sense. The idea is not too strange, when you think about it. When looking at the life of a single person, there's not alot of choices actually being made by that person, but by the society as a whole.
In a sense we have single awareness's for ourself (regarding the small choices we encounter), and then a smaller group of people share a collective awareness through their conversations and actions. Very much like a flock of birds that flies away when being threatened, there's not alot of individual choice in that action.

John Page · 01-08-2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist
That would just be about their personality really... which would be the cause of their observable behaviour. (I think their personality is caused purely by physical processes of course).

Hi Excre!

Agreed except I would change the perspective. "Personality" is a property the arises in the mind of the perceivers (since different observers may come to different conclusions about the personality of a single subject).

Perhaps "....which are caused by their observable behavior". I don't disagree with physical processes causing the detectable differences in observable behavior in the first place, though.

Cheers, John

Mr. Sammi · 01-09-2003, 01:45 PM

Theli,

I think you have mis-understood me. To address your point about awareness between you now and you as a child has nothing to do with a regular thinking position, a moral or immoral attitude which is constant.

A child born with a good nature BUT brought up in a nasty environment will have awareness of nastiness BUT if the soul of the child is strong, the awareness plays no part in the thinking position. (I had/have no intention to argue about trancendental births)

Regular thinking positions interact with awareness and are regular across any degree of awareness. I use the term awareness to indicate memories and knowledge. Information is embedded in there somewhere.

* * *

To further qualify my position on the soul regarding itz regularity in existence I will call on Denett's actors and actresses to provide a firm plateau for my extension. In Denett's play an actor or actress can manifest in any form, good or bad, moral or immoral. An actor or actress who is inconstant in existence and thinks and acts in a manner which is clearly not regular does not have a soul. Regular means things like the laws of physics which is the same throught our solar system. Regular is applicable to regular languages as observed through Computer Systems.

The regularity of an action or thought brings to the actor or actress a force which is not simple to derail. If you do things on a regular basis it forms a habit. It becomes increasingly difficult to break a habit as the years wear on.

Constantly thinking and acting along certain lines form a degree of habit which when it becomes pratically impossible to break such a habit be the habit good or bad, one can then comment on the soul of the person in question. A good soul. A bad soul.

Theli, as a result I think you should retract your statement concerning the ineffectiveness of my position on the soul seeing there is no philosophical basis for your opinion. I don't mean to sound too pompous...

Sammi Na Boodie ()

Keith Russell · 01-09-2003, 02:24 PM

Theli said:
About the soul of the earth, I just read an article in a science magazine about the effect of human fear and discomfort following 9/11 giving readout on random generators all over the world.

Keith: Generators designed to detect...what, exactly?

Theli: And that it would suggest a collective awareness.

Keith: What is 'it', in the above sentence?

Theli: That humanity as a whole share feelings through a yet undetected medium.

Keith: If it's an 'undetected medium', then what were these detectors detecting, or trying to detect?

Thei: Perhaps it is a very early forming of a sixth sense.

Keith: What is 'it', in the above sentence?

Theli: The idea is not too strange, when you think about it.

Keith: Something that exists is not impossible; it exists. It might be rare, but rarity has no bearing on possibility, only on probability. Thinking about something also has no bearing on its possibility, impossbility or probability--nor any bearing on its 'strangeness'. Something either is, or is not. Your previous sentence makes no sense.

Theli: When looking at the life of a single person, there's not alot of choices actually being made by that person, but by the society as a whole.

Keith: You're right. I never do anything without taking a poll.

Keith

Theli · 01-09-2003, 05:40 PM

Keith...

Detecting an effect and detecting a medium is not the same thing. We can hear sounds without knowing how they travel to us.
As for the rest of your post, I could taunt you until your genitals falls off, but I'm guessing it will have a minor effect. I used the word "guessing", now is that based on possibility or probability, or am I not trying to make a logical argument?

Sammi...

Quote:

To address your point about awareness between you now and you as a child has nothing to do with a regular thinking position

Ok, you lost me again... regular thinking position?
If you are refering to what we usually refer to as "me", "you" and "him" that seems to disregard age (saying that I'm the same person as I was before, I have the same name and memories) I wouldn't put too much weight on it.

Quote:

Regular thinking positions interact with awareness and are regular across any degree of awareness. I use the term awareness to indicate memories and knowledge.

Memories and knowledge is information, but I don't see how mere information can be regarded as aware.

Theli · 01-09-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Theli: When looking at the life of a single person, there's not alot of choices actually being made by that person, but by the society as a whole.

Keith: You're right. I never do anything without taking a poll.

Actually, you never even had a chance to take a poll. Why do you think commercials are so effective? If people made their own choices in complete disregard of socitety, there would be no commercials, there would be no trends/fashion and there would definitely be no orginized religion. Or orginized anything for that matter.
I'm sure you could come up with atleast some choices of yours that socitety as a whole (or other people in general) have persuaded you to take.

I wonder what society would look like if everyone walked around making all their choices on their own.

Mr. Sammi · 01-10-2003, 07:16 AM

I am not usually inclined to back and forth (one of my regular thinking positions), but today my soul cries out murder.

If possible absorb the following information as a regular thinking position : (1) Never looks stupid. (2) Always tells a lie every 2 to 3 phrases. (3) Thinks certain races are below them. (4) Loves to be humorous even in a 9/11 situation. (4) Adores women to the bitter end. (5) Thinks all men are scum sucking pigs. (6) ...

A regular thinking position does not imply no change in the cognitive personality. Experiences will always color the self. Experiences do not abort the soul. When a regular thinking position is achieved, depending on the situational experience the effect may be different BUT the underlying philosophical riff will be of the same quality.

* * *

Here is a 9/11 joke. Heard the one about the cat who bailed out through the window. Was thinking 'cat farts, what a lucky break, no spaghetti tonight'. But halfway out seeing another doing the same thing, same cat, yells and grins, 'na na na na na - copycat, copycat'.

(no need to comment on this paragraph OR try to draw any foolish conclusions)

* * *

Sammi Na Boodie (all bracketed and ready to tee off)

01-08-2003, 05:43 AM	#42
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Crocodile D/R' definition of "soul" To be sure, CrocoDeathroll, you have an absolute right to define a word anyhow you wish (This is NOT sarcasm. It is my skeptic'sfree-man's opinion.) However, given the long and public history/usage of the word >>> "SOUL" in human discussion, my personal opinion is that your particularly-private definition of the term "SOUL" does tend to muddy the waters, dear Person......

01-08-2003, 09:39 AM	#43
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	The Confirmed Self. Theli, crocodile deathroll, Abe, excreationist, managalar, Answerer, Amos, John Page, Nyssa, Adrian Selby, and who-ever-else is interested, I may be in a position to posit SOUL as a confirmed position of being. Soul as a regular concrete visitor from your native lands. Soul is apparent due to itz consistent nature. Yet it seems to be an emergent facet of the human which emerges and solidifies itself due to itz regular appearance on the day and night show. The soul of the Earth. Not a soul in sight. My aching soul. What emerged from protons and electrons and various wizzing energies BECAME the soul of the universe, the soul of the Earth. * * * (not for the weak hearted) The souls of your parents when they merged became your body (with a bit of science magic). If you were born A reincarnate your baby body would have been initially imbued OR additionally colored by a regular position of mind which added up to SOUL, your incarnate soul. This is a regular birth PLUS a transcendental birth. A double bonus. * * * (back to philosophy) I am glad to have a soul to share with. Sammi Na Boodie (soul NOT ghoul)

01-09-2003, 01:45 PM	#46
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	to Soul or not to SOUL... Theli, I think you have mis-understood me. To address your point about awareness between you now and you as a child has nothing to do with a regular thinking position, a moral or immoral attitude which is constant. A child born with a good nature BUT brought up in a nasty environment will have awareness of nastiness BUT if the soul of the child is strong, the awareness plays no part in the thinking position. (I had/have no intention to argue about trancendental births) Regular thinking positions interact with awareness and are regular across any degree of awareness. I use the term awareness to indicate memories and knowledge. Information is embedded in there somewhere. * * * To further qualify my position on the soul regarding itz regularity in existence I will call on Denett's actors and actresses to provide a firm plateau for my extension. In Denett's play an actor or actress can manifest in any form, good or bad, moral or immoral. An actor or actress who is inconstant in existence and thinks and acts in a manner which is clearly not regular does not have a soul. Regular means things like the laws of physics which is the same throught our solar system. Regular is applicable to regular languages as observed through Computer Systems. The regularity of an action or thought brings to the actor or actress a force which is not simple to derail. If you do things on a regular basis it forms a habit. It becomes increasingly difficult to break a habit as the years wear on. Constantly thinking and acting along certain lines form a degree of habit which when it becomes pratically impossible to break such a habit be the habit good or bad, one can then comment on the soul of the person in question. A good soul. A bad soul. Theli, as a result I think you should retract your statement concerning the ineffectiveness of my position on the soul seeing there is no philosophical basis for your opinion. I don't mean to sound too pompous... Sammi Na Boodie ()

01-10-2003, 07:16 AM	#50
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	regular thinking position I am not usually inclined to back and forth (one of my regular thinking positions), but today my soul cries out murder. If possible absorb the following information as a regular thinking position : (1) Never looks stupid. (2) Always tells a lie every 2 to 3 phrases. (3) Thinks certain races are below them. (4) Loves to be humorous even in a 9/11 situation. (4) Adores women to the bitter end. (5) Thinks all men are scum sucking pigs. (6) ... A regular thinking position does not imply no change in the cognitive personality. Experiences will always color the self. Experiences do not abort the soul. When a regular thinking position is achieved, depending on the situational experience the effect may be different BUT the underlying philosophical riff will be of the same quality. * * * Here is a 9/11 joke. Heard the one about the cat who bailed out through the window. Was thinking 'cat farts, what a lucky break, no spaghetti tonight'. But halfway out seeing another doing the same thing, same cat, yells and grins, 'na na na na na - copycat, copycat'. (no need to comment on this paragraph OR try to draw any foolish conclusions) * * * Sammi Na Boodie (all bracketed and ready to tee off)

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01-09-2003, 02:24 PM	#47
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Theli said: About the soul of the earth, I just read an article in a science magazine about the effect of human fear and discomfort following 9/11 giving readout on random generators all over the world. Keith: Generators designed to detect...what, exactly? Theli: And that it would suggest a collective awareness. Keith: What is 'it', in the above sentence? Theli: That humanity as a whole share feelings through a yet undetected medium. Keith: If it's an 'undetected medium', then what were these detectors detecting, or trying to detect? Thei: Perhaps it is a very early forming of a sixth sense. Keith: What is 'it', in the above sentence? Theli: The idea is not too strange, when you think about it. Keith: Something that exists is not impossible; it exists. It might be rare, but rarity has no bearing on possibility, only on probability. Thinking about something also has no bearing on its possibility, impossbility or probability--nor any bearing on its 'strangeness'. Something either is, or is not. Your previous sentence makes no sense. Theli: When looking at the life of a single person, there's not alot of choices actually being made by that person, but by the society as a whole. Keith: You're right. I never do anything without taking a poll. Keith

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