onceuponapriori

Hello. Please accept my thanks in advance for the time you are taking to read (and hopefully respond to) this post.

I try to base each and every belief that I have upon at least a bare minimum of evidence. To my shame, I recently realized that my specifically Christian beliefs are not as well supported as I once thought (I should here note that my general theistic beliefs are not nearly as flimsy -- perhaps, they are even well supported -- but that I'm not interested in debating those right now).

Over time, I've been exposed to myriad pieces of "evidence" that supposedly supported the Biblical view of the life, death, resurrection and deity of Christ. It turns out that, upon further examination, some of these claims turn out to be false, or not as heavily supported as the speaker seemed to imply. One specifically is the topic of this post.

I've often reflected upon the fact that men typically find their own life to be precious. Everything else that they enjoy or love cannot be experienced if their life were to end. So, among many other criteria that I use to judge someone's sincerity of and the probable truth of their claim, is the idea that a man who is willing to die for a particular belief is most likely sincere about that belief. Particularly if he is sure he will die if he does not give up that belief. Summarized (and fashioned to be relevant to the subject matter at hand): Many men will die for what they believe is true; nearly no man will die for what he knows is false.

Just how does this relate to whether Jesus' apostles were martyred? It should be obvious, but it seems that his apostles' claims should be taken much more seriously if:

1. They were in a position to know whether their claims were true or false.

2. They were willing to die rather than renounce the object of their claims. This seems especially relevant if the manner in which they died was horribly painful or brutal.

I've been told that both states 1 and 2 obtain (call it 'apostolic martyrdom'). But just where is the evidence that apostolic martyrdom is true? I've heard it mentioned by street apologists, my former pastor, my father and scholarly men whom I've grown to tremendously respect -- but I do not recall ever seeing documentation in support of this. Sure, someone mentioned the Fox's Book of Martyrs, but surely that is not strong evidence (ie, that it is merely written in that book).

Does anyone know of any historical evidence in support of the claim that Christ's apostles were martyred for their belief in him? I'd really appreciate it, as I can only honestly affirm the Christian theory of Jesus' life if I am able to 'hold on' to some substantial evidence in support of it. I do hope to return to the vigor with which I once affirmed the deity and seemingly amazing life of Christ. Right now, I am operating under the benefit of the doubt, but I can only do so and remain intellectually honest for a finite time.

I'd like to summarize some of the evidence I've already dragged up regarding this:

- In an his article http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/martyrs.html Peter Kirby -- someone I've grown to respect -- mentions that both Tacitus and Suetonius attested to the martyrdom of early Christians (while raising a variety of possible problems with my criterion and that evidence).

- When I posted this elsewhere, someone mentioned that the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians mentioned the martyrs.

I'm hoping to find similar references. Once I have, I can examine each of the author's possible motivations for writing, locality to the events, etc to judge for myself whether the evidence is strong enough to support a belief in apostolic martyrdom.

A side note: I'd like to keep the discussion of this thread limited to whether there is evidence that supports apostolic martyrdom; ie, I'd like to avoid discussions focused upon the validity of my criterion, the existence of deities in general, etc.


I can thank God that my belief in a God has been substantially established, and I pray that he might guide me to the truth -- whatever it might be.

Peter Kirby

You probably saw this link on my web page, but here it is again for everybody:

http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/martyrs.htm

I have been looking for a while, and I haven't found any source that attempts to catalogue the martyrdom traditions in antiquity (say, down to the sixth century or something). I have been considering producing such a catalogue myself, if I could find the time. So far the books I've read purporting to be about the history of the apostles are entirely pre-critical.

The traditions of apostolic martyrdom are scanty before the end of the second century. Of the Twelve, only Peter as hinted in the Johannine appendix and 1 Clement, and James, not the brother, in Acts...oh, and Judas, three ways.

best,
Peter Kirby

Kosh

"Welcome...to the real world...."

Have you read Farrell Tills critique of Josh McDowel in the II lib? He addresses this issue in there.

onceuponapriori

Thank you Peter for the information and advice. I didn't read that link yet. Please, let me know if you do get along to catalouging those references.

Kosh, thanks. I'll have to take a look at Farrell Till's article(s), though I'm familiar with him through second-hand sources.

Everyone, please, keep the responses coming.

Peter Kirby

Sure, I will post to this board if I make any headway on the traditions about the apostles.

In addition to Carr's material linked about, Till has something online too:

http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../4front97.html

Let us know if you find anything in your studies.

best,
Peter Kirby

CX

If you dig you will find that there is very little in the way of evidence regarding the supposed martyrdom of "the twelve". It is largely late 2nd century church tradition. That being said there is a fallacy implicit in the apologetic being presented here. Namely, the sincerity of one's belief is not evidence for the truth or falsity of the object of that belief. People sincerely believe false propositions all the time. Just something to chew on.

onceuponapriori

Thank you both.

Steven Carr

According to Galatians, circumcision not resurrection was the issue, and Christian leaders compromised their beliefs 'to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ'.

Notice that Paul says cross and not resurrection here.

I don't know anybody , even much later, who was persecuted for preaching a resurrection.

ex-xian

I did the same thing for over a year...and just look at me now!

onceuponapriori

Off Topic - Question: Did you give up belief in all deities, or just the Christian God?