Veil of Fire

As a Druidic Wiccan, I participate in a lot of metaphysical healing rituals, many of which work. Critics of such activities tend to attribute any successes to a nebulous "placebo effect".

HUH??

Isn't the fact that a placebo effect exists some proof that the mind has some sort of control over the body in a way science doesn't explain? From the Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html)

"Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11
different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope ("The Placebo Prescription" by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000).*"

I can't tell you how annoyed this makes me. "It can't be metaphysical, it's the placebo effect!" "What causes that?" "Uhh, we don't know, but it has nothing to do with what you think it has to do with!" "How do you know?" "Because the placebo effect is scientific, and your stuff is not!"

My question is, what is the placebo effect if NOT proof that the mind has direct, objectively observable control over the human body in some form or another? If a person can train themselves to exhibit the same emotions/reaction without having to take a sugar pill first, wouldn't that look a lot like some sort of metaphysical healing?

All in all, I consistantly get the impression that the placebo effect is science's crutch when they can't quite explain something but know it "just has to be" fake. Better the "scientific" theory you know nothing about than the "superstitious" theory you know nothing about, eh?

Synaesthesia

Veil of Fire,
Your argument is an example of what I call a psalm to the gods of the gaps.

That the brain and the body are intricately connected is not exactly news. This is a fact that has been known and elucidated for some hundreds of years. The fact that pain is a mental phenomenon and, as such, can be affected by our psychological state is also old news.

The reason why scientists do not currently accept that you have magical powers, (or as you might term it, “metaphysical” powers) is simply because you invoke processes and mechanisms who’s very existence is dubious. In the absence of an unambiguous theory of brain/body interaction, there is no rational reason to jump to the unparsimonious conclusions we are lead to by mystical mumbo-jumbo.

Magic has demonstrated causal efficacy no more than any other quack medicine. While one might argue that all quackery is actually “metaphysical healing”, I myself am more inclined to call it what it is: Snake oil.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

Veil of Fire

"In the absence of an unambiguous theory of brain/body interaction, there is no rational reason to jump to the unparsimonious conclusions we are lead to by mystical mumbo-jumbo."

Isn't the placebo effect just as much an unparsimonious conclusion?

tronvillain

Why should the control be in a way that science can't explain? It looks very likely to be dependent on the brain, nerves, immune cells, and hormones. There is no more reason to think that the placebo is evidence of the metaphysical than my ability to lift my hand.

Various questions come to mind: Was the elimination of warts with "placebo dye" actually more effective than the elimation of warts by leaving them alone? In other words, was there actually an effect? Was the dye totally inert? In other words, was the effect actually a placebo effect?

Most of the examples look as if they may be linked to simple relaxation: people relax when they think something is being done to help the problem, which affects immune function and perception of pain.

tronvillain

Veil of Fire:
At its most basic, the placebo effect is simply an improvement caused without an apparent direct physiological mechanism. It very well could be due to magical powers of the mind, but that it is due to much more mundane biological processes is a simpler explanation. It is also the explanation supporeted by the evidencei, as our understanding of immune system and the perception of pain improves.

Valmorian

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Not at all, if you want to propose that it's due to metaphysical rituals, then perform some tests! If the "correct" metaphysical rituals result in a statistically significant result above the "control" group, then you'd have something solid to propose.




Depends upon what you mean. If by your Druidic metaphysical healing you mean "utilizing the placebo effect to effect a cure" then by all means go ahead. Of course, you should realize that there's no reason to believe the Druidic healing had anything to do with it, since you could get those placebo results from something as simply as a sugar pill and a lie.. interesting hm?

The placebo effect may not be fully understood, but it is recognized. Of course, if it WAS due to metaphysical rituals and spells and the like, why isn't there a less pronounced effect when it's nothing more than a sugar pill?

Undercurrent

The placebo effect is not a conclusion of any kind. It is a name for an observation.

The statement, "The placebo effect is caused by ..." would be a conclusion.

m.

liquid

VoF!

Of UP I presume... in that case, you know who I am. This is where I spend most of my time nowadays (Been here on and off for ages - see member no., but mostly off till I got bored of UP). Good to see you here - gives a bit of variation to the normal Xian fundies.

Hope to engage you in debate soon.

scombrid

Wow, there's a mind body connection with most examples provided having to do with pain perception. It must be majik.

Your mental state affects hormone release. Stress causes cortisol release into the blood. This tends to worsen asthma by constricting bronchial passages further. Simply making somebody think they are receiving treatment will relax them and lessen the stress effect on asthma.

I once went on a long trip and on arrival realized that I didn't have my rescue inhaler with me. As soon as I realized this I began experiencing asthma symptoms (psycosomatic response). My worry must have affected the flow of my chakra-chi-poopoo and caused an asthma attack. It surely wasn't a hormonal connection. I'm lucky my leg didn't fall off.

Veil of Fire

Liquid: Yup!

And surely YOU understand what I'm trying to say with this line of argument, right? Nobody else seems to be listening to me.

Scombrid: If it's so simple, why can't you do it on demand?