Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Terracotta · 08-24-2002, 03:40 PM

Excerpted from my local small-town newspaper, italic emphasis mine:

Quote:

The Jessamine County Ministerial Association will sponsor a community-wide prayer service for Jessamine County Schools on Sunday, Aug. 25, beginning at 6:30pm. The location will be Nicholasville Elementary School...

<snip>

Following the meal at 7pm, the worship service will begin with a presentation of the colors by members of Boy Scout Troop 7 and the Pledge of Allegiance.

The service will include scripture, prayers, music, speakers and a time of commitment for Christians to pray daily for the county's schools. Among those participating will be Superintendent Linda France; Karl Smith, chairman of the Jessamine County Board of Education, principals, teachers and support staff from the school district, as well as pastors and members of our county's churches.

I am incensed. The churches have every right to hold a prayer/worship service for the schools, but I don't think it should be held at one of the public schools, and it really burns me about the county school officials and teachers participating.

08-24-2002, 03:47 PM

The same thing happened in my town a few months ago, but when I contacted the ACLU they said that these kinds of events are perfectly legal as long as they're held after school hours and as long as attendance isn't mandatory for students.

The Other Michael · 08-24-2002, 04:00 PM

It would seem to me like they'd also need to have the school officials/staff make it clear that they were there as private citizens who are concerned about the schools, and not in their official capacities.

Ms. Jane Doe is fine, but Superintendent Jane Doe seems to be crossing the line.

cheers,
Michael

GaryP · 08-24-2002, 04:58 PM

And how does an Atheist teacher miss an event such as this in a small town and expect no repercussions?

My school always posts an invitation from a local church to attend a beginning of school worship.

But it is at the church during a regular service.

If it was held in a school and the supt. is there isn't it plain as to the pressure involved to attend?

Alonzo Fyfe · 08-24-2002, 07:40 PM

I am afraid that I agree with the ACLU on this one, not only pertaining to the legality of this matter, but I think it should be legal.

If governments are going to allow organizations to use school property and facilities when school is not in session, then those governments ought not to discriminate on the basis of the religious affiliations and views of those organizations.

Terracotta · 08-24-2002, 08:34 PM

It's not so much that it's being held at a public school that bothers me (although it still does), it's the fact that supposedly several official higher-ups in the public school system are scheduled to participate. I think that borders on inappropriate.

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive. But this is small-town Kentucky, and the level of religiosity here is often stifling. This is my first experience dealing with the public school system - my stepdaughter just started kindergarten. I hope that I don't have a battle ahead of me with her schooling.

B. H. Manners · 08-24-2002, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Terracotta:
<strong>It's not so much that it's being held at a public school that bothers me (although it still does), it's the fact that supposedly several official higher-ups in the public school system are scheduled to participate. I think that borders on inappropriate.

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive. But this is small-town Kentucky, and the level of religiosity here is often stifling. This is my first experience dealing with the public school system - my stepdaughter just started kindergarten. I hope that I don't have a battle ahead of me with her schooling.</strong>

Terrecotta,

That is probably just it. It is a small town and the super and some of the principals and teachers they have to go to please the crownd. I would not worry about it.

Buffman · 08-24-2002, 09:26 PM

I agree with Alonzo, and others, who find this to be a perfectly legal expression of individual conscience. Yes, the using of titles does add a certain obvious agenda to the rival meeting, but those are their titles...on or off the clock. Perhaps the positive approach would be to post signs saying that Atheists support the legal rights of everyone to express their beliefs, whether religious or non-religious, in any ethical manner they choose...as long as they are not functioning in their official government capacities.

Wyz_sub10 · 08-24-2002, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Terracotta:
<strong>It's not so much that it's being held at a public school that bothers me (although it still does), it's the fact that supposedly several official higher-ups in the public school system are scheduled to participate. I think that borders on inappropriate.</strong>

But you can't expect these people to relinquish their beliefs altogether because they happen to be "higher up". I see what you are driving at, but I think as long as school isn't in session and the "higher ups" do not require their subordinates to go, let them go and have a rip-roaring prayin' time (or whatever).

Toto · 08-24-2002, 11:47 PM

The extent of teachers rights was discussed in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000207&p=" target="_blank">this thread</a>.

A conservative legal site has a <a href="http://www.nlf.net/syatp.htm" target="_blank">Guide for Teachers</a> that warns teachers about mixing their public role as government employees and their private role.

This event might be legal if the teachers are free not to attend, and the event uses the public school space on the same basis as any other outside group.

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08-24-2002, 03:47 PM	#2
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	The same thing happened in my town a few months ago, but when I contacted the ACLU they said that these kinds of events are perfectly legal as long as they're held after school hours and as long as attendance isn't mandatory for students.

08-24-2002, 04:00 PM	#3
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	It would seem to me like they'd also need to have the school officials/staff make it clear that they were there as private citizens who are concerned about the schools, and not in their official capacities. Ms. Jane Doe is fine, but Superintendent Jane Doe seems to be crossing the line. cheers, Michael

08-24-2002, 04:58 PM	#4
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	And how does an Atheist teacher miss an event such as this in a small town and expect no repercussions? My school always posts an invitation from a local church to attend a beginning of school worship. But it is at the church during a regular service. If it was held in a school and the supt. is there isn't it plain as to the pressure involved to attend?

08-24-2002, 07:40 PM	#5
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I am afraid that I agree with the ACLU on this one, not only pertaining to the legality of this matter, but I think it should be legal. If governments are going to allow organizations to use school property and facilities when school is not in session, then those governments ought not to discriminate on the basis of the religious affiliations and views of those organizations.

08-24-2002, 08:34 PM	#6
Terracotta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Kentucky Posts: 369	It's not so much that it's being held at a public school that bothers me (although it still does), it's the fact that supposedly several official higher-ups in the public school system are scheduled to participate. I think that borders on inappropriate. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive. But this is small-town Kentucky, and the level of religiosity here is often stifling. This is my first experience dealing with the public school system - my stepdaughter just started kindergarten. I hope that I don't have a battle ahead of me with her schooling.

08-24-2002, 09:26 PM	#8
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	I agree with Alonzo, and others, who find this to be a perfectly legal expression of individual conscience. Yes, the using of titles does add a certain obvious agenda to the rival meeting, but those are their titles...on or off the clock. Perhaps the positive approach would be to post signs saying that Atheists support the legal rights of everyone to express their beliefs, whether religious or non-religious, in any ethical manner they choose...as long as they are not functioning in their official government capacities.

08-24-2002, 11:47 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The extent of teachers rights was discussed in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000207&p=" target="_blank">this thread</a>. A conservative legal site has a <a href="http://www.nlf.net/syatp.htm" target="_blank">Guide for Teachers</a> that warns teachers about mixing their public role as government employees and their private role. This event might be legal if the teachers are free not to attend, and the event uses the public school space on the same basis as any other outside group.

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