Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 04-14-2003, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional

[/b]

Aha, Argument from Infidel (He-Doesn't-Have-The-Holy-Spirit). Neat. Convenient. A nice way to evade.

I REPEAT:

Jesus said."Why do you call me good? Nobody is good but God alone".

A) God alone is good
B) "Why do you call me good?" implies "I am not good"
AB) Jesus is not God

Simple logic. Just what the Bible says. Take it at face value.

Christianity is nothing more than a religion that makes an idol out of Jesus. [/B]

Then by taking that at face value you are wrong. Iv'e said before, Jesus said that because of his humanity. In the sense that He IS human, He lowered himself from God the Father.

http://www.carm.org/questions/father_greater.htm

Magus55 · 04-14-2003, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN
Magus,

First of all, it bothers me that it does not bother you.

Christianity itself is challenged by that statement of Christ. If God and Jesus (and the H.S.) are one and the same, then this statement is ridiculous, funny and absurd.

If God and Christ are distinct persons, then Christ was hypocritical when he told Thomas that Blessed are those who do no see and yet believe.

For crying out loud, You are seated at the right hand of the Father and you dare say that he had abandoned you. Ye of little faith.

No its not rediculous, you just don't understand the Trinity.

How was Christ hypocrital by saying Blessed are those who do not see but believe? Jesus was Human. He wasn't a spiritual presence. It was referring to God the Father. And the quote fits just fine after Jesus left the Earth. We can't see Jesus, so we have to believe without seeing ( Faith). Its not hypocritical at all.

What are you talking about right hand of God? Jesus wasn't at God's right hand on the cross. That makes no sense. Jesus is NOW, but He wasn't on the cross. By bearing the sins of humanity, it separated Jesus from God for the first time EVER, in all eternity. They were never separated by sin, because Jesus never encountered sin until being on Earth. It didn't separate them permanently, only during His death.

It makes perfect sense, you just can't seem to grasp the concept apparently.

Inconnu · 04-14-2003, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No its not rediculous, you just don't understand the Trinity.

but, neither do you by your own admission. How can you argue from a position that you dont understand yourself?

Quote:

We understand what the Trinity is and how it can exist, we just don't understand it in detail, its too complex for the human mind to comprehend.

= dont understand.

spurly · 04-14-2003, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Enlightened Lady
God of the O.T. certainly forced people to take the lives of others. And you didn't answer the question: Why, if the killers of Jesus were implementing God's will and fulfilling Bible prophecy, should they require forgiveness? Shouldn't they be thanked?

I think the simple answer to this question is yes, they do still require forgiveness for they have sinned against God.

However, God even took their sin, and turned it around for the good of all mankind.

Kevin

spurly · 04-14-2003, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional

[/b]

Aha, Argument from Infidel (He-Doesn't-Have-The-Holy-Spirit). Neat. Convenient. A nice way to evade.

I REPEAT:

Jesus said."Why do you call me good? Nobody is good but God alone".

A) God alone is good
B) "Why do you call me good?" implies "I am not good"
AB) Jesus is not God

Simple logic. Just what the Bible says. Take it at face value.

Christianity is nothing more than a religion that makes an idol out of Jesus. [/B]

Ahh, but is that really what Jesus was saying, or instead was he saying, "Why do you call me good. No one is good except God alone. So you must be calling me good because you see that is who I am!"

Kevin

Rhea · 04-14-2003, 07:18 AM

Quote:

" why have you forsaken me" have never been troubling to me. I understand it to be the moment when Christ is separated from his divine character because of carrying the sins of humanity.

Interesting that at this moment of unbelievable torment - being separated from God for the first time ever - he didn't sweat blood on the cross.

What did he know in the garden of G that he didn't know on the cross?
Why was the actual separation from God less traumatic than the thought of crucifixtion.

Never did understand that timeline...

Quote:

but I can see how it is a difficult concept to a mind which is geared to deny the existence of the divine.

Indeed. Wonder why God geared us thataway. Hmmmm.

Enlighten Me · 04-14-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
I think the simple answer to this question is yes, they do still require forgiveness for they have sinned against God.

However, God even took their sin, and turned it around for the good of all mankind.

Kevin

He "turned it around"? Wasn't the death of Christ (and the shedding of his blood) a *requirement* for the implementation of God's *plan*? Do those who are assisting in the implementation of an important plan need to be forgiven for participating?

Paul2 · 04-14-2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
That is an analogy i commonly use to try and explain the Trinity. Think of Matter. Matter as 3 basic forms. Solid, Liquid, Gas. Each have individual and separate properties, yet all are still Matter right?

Matter has 4 forms, but your analogy fails because said matter can not be in each form at the same time. It is either a solid, or a liquid, or a gas, or plasma. It can not be both a solid and a liquid at the same time.

Quote:

Same with time. Time has 3 parts, past, present and future. Each are different parts of time, yet all are still time.

Time is a line with hash marks on it. there is no such thing as a 'past, present, or future' as those are terms we apply to different marks on said line.

etc, etc.

1 + 1 + 1 = 1, does not compute.

Starboy · 04-14-2003, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul2
1 + 1 + 1 = 1, does not compute.

It does if you're a Christian. Christianity uses a one bit adder with no overflow. A very primitive form of thought.

Starboy

emotional · 04-14-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Then by taking that at face value you are wrong.

Oh, so what's good for the Genesis creation story isn't good for a particular verse when it suits? Again, how convenient. Maybe you shouldn't take the Resurrection at face value either. "He rose again" -- "no, He didn't really rise, it's an allegory" etc.

Quote:

Iv'e said before, Jesus said that because of his humanity. In the sense that He IS human, He lowered himself from God the Father.

Any excuse will do instead of admitting that Jesus didn't think himself God, didn't intend to be deified, and the Christian religion is founded upon the erroneous idolisation of the man Jesus.

It happens all the time. Even today.

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