Freethought & Rationalism Archive

07-31-2002, 08:18 AM

<a href="http://www.iknowbakersfield.com/homearticle.asp?id=34086&section=home&network=bake rsfield" target="_blank">Article</a>

Kevin Dorner · 07-31-2002, 08:27 AM

Not only did they include the real motto E Pluribus Unum at the bottom, but they put IGWT in quotes, and we all know what putting something in quotation marks that isn't a direct quotation is taken to mean.

ie, it's the "real" motto.

god-free-pen · 07-31-2002, 08:46 AM

This sort of thing is going to be happening all over the country, and we must do our best to fight it, however I'm changing my viewpoint about it. Mostly adults will be seeing this monument and adults are too far gone religiously to change their thinking. To eliminate it now would be nearly impossible. We should use their weapon against them, the indoctrination of children which they are now using on ours. It is they who have divided our country into "WE" and "THEM".

DIVIDED WE STAND

LET'S MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO REACH THEIR TEENAGE AND OLDER CHILDREN WITH BUMPER STICKERS, PAMPHLETS, NEWSPAPERS, ETC.

After all, in my experience atheists have never asked anything but keep religion out of GOVERNMENT AND OUT OF SCHOOLS. These requests which we have every right to ask for have not been respected. They are not being respected. We could live together in peace if they had been respected.

Now, if they want a war for the hearts and minds of children, they should get it! They are going to get it.

I'm going to make as many pamphlets as I can possibly carry and leave them EVERYWHERE for children to read, in libraries, book stores, coffee shops, laundramats and last but not least, rest rooms;.... places where reading material is commonly kept. They will outline the basic unfairness that we have been subjected to and what must be done to correct it.

We have been named "hateful" just for asking for our rights, so I think I will wear the label proudly. OK, I'm hateful!

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: god-free-pen ]

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: god-free-pen ]

Alonzo Fyfe · 07-31-2002, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by god-free-pen:
We should use their weapon against them, the indoctrination of children which they are now using on ours. It is they who have divided our country into "WE" and "THEM".

True. I would propose a letter of the paper -- kindly stated -- asking why the decision was made to list two contradictory statements on the same plaque.

The first statement divides the country into two groups: "We" who trust in God, and "They" who do not.

The second statement then calls for unity -- the opposite of the division being advocated with the first motto.

It's somewhat like having a sign that says

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

And now we add:

DIVISION IS UNITY

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]

Alonzo Fyfe · 07-31-2002, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by god-free-pen:
Now, if they want a war for the hearts and minds of children, they should get it! They are going to get it.

I would agree, but I argue for efficiency.

The best way to get to the hearts and minds of children is through other children.

When one child protests the posting of "In God We Trust" in his school, he reaches all of the other students better than anybody else can.

I have a proposal, for a weekly youth meeting/class. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss logic and reason. The class deals with basic propositional logic, informal fallacies, how to tell the difference between good science and bad science.

Armed with this, send them into the school.

Have them explain to their fellow students how posting "In God We Trust" is no different than posting "Atheists Not Welcome Here", which is no different than a sign that says "Whites Only" or a star of David with a red cross through it.

Autonemesis · 07-31-2002, 09:27 AM

Quote:

"It's beautiful, it's wonderful, just perfect," said (Councilwoman Jacquie) Sullivan. "It's intended to encourage, inspire, to bring god back into our thinking our lives, our government. To inspire our policy makers and government officials, so I'm very pleased. It's wonderful."

Oh, but this is not establishment of religion. No! They're just bringing God "back into" our lives and our government.

capsaicin67 · 07-31-2002, 11:32 AM

I think that the idea of intervening at the level of young adults and our children is exactly what will possibly work if done well.

Secular ideas have to enter pop culture in such a way that they carry with them more marketable and accurate meaning.

I agree with the idea of promoting critical thinking skills at an early age. I have often thought that this is exactly the most important thing that could be done. Arm them with the ability to see through manipulation and deceipt, and they should be armed for life. Learn to love the seeking of knowledge, curiosity, and searching for the closest approximation of truth, and I believe that later they will find it very hard to settle for denial for themselves and others.

We have to remember, though, that they are hammered with religious tripe daily now, and that will increase. As we've discussed on other threads, the xian extremists in this country have been actively laying the groundwork for controlling media outlets that define our popular culture for the past 50 years. We can't underestimate the tremendous impact they are already having. I'll pull out my old saw: we are going to need some fairly sophisticated leadership and projects to stem the tide, let alone have any hopes of reversing it. But I think it can be done.

And we might have to outsource the marketing strategy/implementation to get the desired result, at least until we have that level of sophistication in-house.

Another idea would be to aggressively fund scholarships to young nontheists that are going to law school, study political strategy, marketing, multimedia. And for no god's sake, get those freethought support groups going on campuses as widespread as possible! Etc.

Starspun · 07-31-2002, 12:06 PM

I remember seeing something such as this around 1975 when I was a wee tiny chitlin. I thought E Pluribus Unum meant in god we trust. Funny how they would put the two together.

Secular Elation · 07-31-2002, 12:27 PM

Tell me about it - I live in that city!

Also, shortly after the Bakersfield council approved the measure, a local community, Wasco, also decided to follow up with the same proposal. I wrote a <a href="http://www.geocities.com/sec_el/letter_protest.htm" target="_blank">letter of protest</a> to the Wasco City Council, but alas, it was too late.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]

god-free-pen · 07-31-2002, 12:33 PM

"Quote: When one child protests the posting of "In God We Trust" in his school, he reaches all of the other students better than anybody else can. "Unquote"

Correct.

My 11 year old grand-daughter did that this morning while visiting religious friends (she didn't get beat-up either!) but she has been armed to the teeth with intelligent reasonable answers and has been warned when these discussions take place she must "act like a lady". Um, she has a rather loud voice anyway.

"Quote" Another idea would be to aggressively fund scholarships to young nontheists that are going to law school, study political strategy, marketing, multimedia. And for no god's sake, get those freethought support groups going on campuses as widespread as possible! Etc. "Unquote"

A really terrific idea.

07-31-2002, 08:18 AM	#1
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	Huge "In God We Trust" sign placed in Bakersfield city hall <a href="http://www.iknowbakersfield.com/homearticle.asp?id=34086&section=home&network=bake rsfield" target="_blank">Article</a>

07-31-2002, 08:46 AM	#3
god-free-pen Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Navarre, FL Posts: 109	This sort of thing is going to be happening all over the country, and we must do our best to fight it, however I'm changing my viewpoint about it. Mostly adults will be seeing this monument and adults are too far gone religiously to change their thinking. To eliminate it now would be nearly impossible. We should use their weapon against them, the indoctrination of children which they are now using on ours. It is they who have divided our country into "WE" and "THEM". DIVIDED WE STAND LET'S MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO REACH THEIR TEENAGE AND OLDER CHILDREN WITH BUMPER STICKERS, PAMPHLETS, NEWSPAPERS, ETC. After all, in my experience atheists have never asked anything but keep religion out of GOVERNMENT AND OUT OF SCHOOLS. These requests which we have every right to ask for have not been respected. They are not being respected. We could live together in peace if they had been respected. Now, if they want a war for the hearts and minds of children, they should get it! They are going to get it. I'm going to make as many pamphlets as I can possibly carry and leave them EVERYWHERE for children to read, in libraries, book stores, coffee shops, laundramats and last but not least, rest rooms;.... places where reading material is commonly kept. They will outline the basic unfairness that we have been subjected to and what must be done to correct it. We have been named "hateful" just for asking for our rights, so I think I will wear the label proudly. OK, I'm hateful! [ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: god-free-pen ] [ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: god-free-pen ]</p>

07-31-2002, 12:27 PM	#9
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	Tell me about it - I live in that city! Also, shortly after the Bakersfield council approved the measure, a local community, Wasco, also decided to follow up with the same proposal. I wrote a <a href="http://www.geocities.com/sec_el/letter_protest.htm" target="_blank">letter of protest</a> to the Wasco City Council, but alas, it was too late. [ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]</p>

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07-31-2002, 08:27 AM	#2
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	Not only did they include the real motto E Pluribus Unum at the bottom, but they put IGWT in quotes, and we all know what putting something in quotation marks that isn't a direct quotation is taken to mean. ie, it's the "real" motto.

07-31-2002, 11:32 AM	#7
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	I think that the idea of intervening at the level of young adults and our children is exactly what will possibly work if done well. Secular ideas have to enter pop culture in such a way that they carry with them more marketable and accurate meaning. I agree with the idea of promoting critical thinking skills at an early age. I have often thought that this is exactly the most important thing that could be done. Arm them with the ability to see through manipulation and deceipt, and they should be armed for life. Learn to love the seeking of knowledge, curiosity, and searching for the closest approximation of truth, and I believe that later they will find it very hard to settle for denial for themselves and others. We have to remember, though, that they are hammered with religious tripe daily now, and that will increase. As we've discussed on other threads, the xian extremists in this country have been actively laying the groundwork for controlling media outlets that define our popular culture for the past 50 years. We can't underestimate the tremendous impact they are already having. I'll pull out my old saw: we are going to need some fairly sophisticated leadership and projects to stem the tide, let alone have any hopes of reversing it. But I think it can be done. And we might have to outsource the marketing strategy/implementation to get the desired result, at least until we have that level of sophistication in-house. Another idea would be to aggressively fund scholarships to young nontheists that are going to law school, study political strategy, marketing, multimedia. And for no god's sake, get those freethought support groups going on campuses as widespread as possible! Etc.

07-31-2002, 12:06 PM	#8
Starspun Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 334	I remember seeing something such as this around 1975 when I was a wee tiny chitlin. I thought E Pluribus Unum meant in god we trust. Funny how they would put the two together.

07-31-2002, 12:33 PM	#10
god-free-pen Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Navarre, FL Posts: 109	"Quote: When one child protests the posting of "In God We Trust" in his school, he reaches all of the other students better than anybody else can. "Unquote" Correct. My 11 year old grand-daughter did that this morning while visiting religious friends (she didn't get beat-up either!) but she has been armed to the teeth with intelligent reasonable answers and has been warned when these discussions take place she must "act like a lady". Um, she has a rather loud voice anyway. "Quote" Another idea would be to aggressively fund scholarships to young nontheists that are going to law school, study political strategy, marketing, multimedia. And for no god's sake, get those freethought support groups going on campuses as widespread as possible! Etc. "Unquote" A really terrific idea.

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