Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mike_decock · 04-17-2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
I find this a rather sad attitude to prayer. Sad because as much as I'd like to claim it's an atheist straw-man of Christians beliefs, I see many Christians effectively saying the same things.
To me this view treats God like he's Santa Claus. Not in that "he doesn't exist like Santa", but because it expects endless freebies. God is treated like he's a cosmic vending machine where the coinage is prayer and the output is all the goodies you can think of.

I'm glad you see things that way. It was my attitude as a Christian. I would pray that God would work His will in my life and help me be a better person. It seemed to work because I wasn't too bad. When I stopped praying, I didn't get any worse so I guess it really had no effect. The only difference now is that I take credit for my own achievements, I don't give it to some non-existent God who never did anything.

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Consider "The Lord's Prayer". It doesn't give a list of "people I want converted" or "miracles I want done NOW!" Rather, it merely says "your will be done", a reminder for the sake of the person praying, not to encourage God. It continues by concentrating on the person praying, their own relationship with God and with others... "Forgive my sins, as I forgive the sins of those who sin against me"... reminding the person praying about their responsibilities towards others.

It also says "Give us this day our daily bread". Maybe that's not God's will, huh? Lots of people on this planet don't get their daily bread so I guess it isn't part of "God's Will", after all. I guess Jesus must have had it wrong, then.

-Mike...

christ-on-a-stick · 04-17-2003, 09:10 AM

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I am reminded of the words of the great George Carlin, "I pray to Joe Pesci." He says it seems to work about the same, he gets the same results.

Praying to penguins works too! The Power of Penguins

Asha'man · 04-17-2003, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Depends what you pray for. If you pray for spiritual growth, then prayer inevitably works.

Demonstrably false. I prayed for spiritual growth, and now I am an atheist.

Or do you want to suggest that being an atheist is spiritually superior to being a theist wanting reassurance about his doubts?

fishbulb · 04-17-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
Prayer works. I think its one of the greatest things we can do for one another.

Interestingly, if prayer does work, then the notion of an omnipotent and infalliable God with a master plan goes out the window.

If you can make God behave differently by praying, you have power over God: what he does depends, to some degree, on what you do. If you can influence him (influence is power), he can't be all-powerful. If you can't, then prayer doesn't work (since the same thing would have happened whether you prayed or not).

If God actually listens to your prayer, it is an implicit admission on his part that he is not infalliable; that he ought to at least consider the possibility of changing his mind based on your petition.

If God is both perfect and omnipotent, prayer is niether necessary (everything is already as it should be) nor effective (you cannot influence an omnipotent being).

I think this is an interesting area where Christianity's unusual conception of God conflicts directly and messily with beliefs carried over from earlier pagan times when Gods were seen as little more than uberkings.

Goliath · 04-17-2003, 02:10 PM

Amie,

Quote:

Prayer works.

Unproven assertion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

TiConTiki · 04-17-2003, 02:40 PM

Prayer can actually have a REVERSE effect.

Consider the one who prays and asks for something and then believes with all their heart that God will provide.

That person is NOT going to take the steps necessary to achieve his prayer. He is waiting for God's answer.

But the guy who didn't pray - and simply got off his ass and did something - is the guy who will be successful.

Prayer lulls the believer into complacency. IMHO

christ-on-a-stick · 04-17-2003, 02:45 PM

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Prayer lulls the believer into complacency

I agree that it *can* and *does*, often, although not always. I've known some Christians who prayed a lot but also took the attitude that God would "help those who helped themselves" so to speak... but I've known far, FAR more Christians who (IMO) effectively neglect to take responsibility for their lives (and sometimes' their families, sadly) by "putting it all on the Lord". And they think it is a good thing.

Tercel · 04-17-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
Wow! Tercel manages to contradict himself within the same post! Let's take a look, shall we?

Hmm... with reading comprehension like that, I don't think I want to know what you think of the Bible.

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OK, before I get to where the contradiciton is, let's ask a question. Would not a good master be open to the needs of his servant so that he may better serve the master? I've learned that a good leader listens to those he leads and takes their concerns into consideration when making his decisions. How do you know what his will is anyway?

I believe God knows our needs and acts on them as He sees fit. In general, I believe He is mostly committed to a course of non-direct interference in order to allow free-will of all, but that He can and does act through people who are willing to be his servants.
His will is clearly revealed in the teachings of Christianity.

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Moving on:Here the pray-er is asking to be forgiven! But above you said we are not to make demands of "the master."

Asking to be forgiven is merely an expression of the state of your own heart. -Or a reminder to you that your heart should be in this state if it's not. Presumably you know what rhetorical questions are. Things phrased as requests are not necessarily asked for the purposes of an answer.
God knows our heart and whether we have repented, He hardly needs us to tell Him: What we say, we say for our own benefit not His.

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Surely above you were speaking in terms of ideal Christians, which it would seem, almost no one is. I say this because the media has recently been filled with letters and words saying, "Pray for peace." "Pray for our soldiers." "God bless America." Some of this coming from our own President!
So if this is the case, why do people ask things like the above?

People ask for things like that because they have a low conception of God: They think He is an ignorant child incapable of wanting peace until they tell him.

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What then is the point of prayer? Other than reminding the Xian of how they should act, does it serve any real purpose? I'm thinking no.

I'm thinking yes. It reminds the prayer of many important things which they need to sort out in their own lives (their state of mind towards other people, God, sin etc), and helps them to sort some of those things out too.

Tercel · 04-17-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike_decock
It also says "Give us this day our daily bread". Maybe that's not God's will, huh? Lots of people on this planet don't get their daily bread so I guess it isn't part of "God's Will", after all. I guess Jesus must have had it wrong, then.

Actually, I think "give us today our daily bread" is a not-so-subtle dual reminder 1. not to pray "to be able to afford a brand new car in a year's time", and 2. of our continued dependency on God and that we should be living our (spiritual lives atleast) that we are continually dependent upon God's bread daily.

lpetrich · 04-17-2003, 03:30 PM

Tercel:
Actually, I think "give us today our daily bread" is a not-so-subtle dual reminder 1. not to pray "to be able to afford a brand new car in a year's time",

I don't see the connection.

and 2. of our continued dependency on God and that we should be living our (spiritual lives atleast) that we are continually dependent upon God's bread daily.

And if "I'm totally dependent on God", then God must be running on autopilot.

At least, I've never heard a deep voice coming out of the sky telling me "I'm real, and not a fiction like all those other deities."

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04-17-2003, 02:40 PM	#16
TiConTiki Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA Posts: 28	Prayer can actually have a REVERSE effect. Consider the one who prays and asks for something and then believes with all their heart that God will provide. That person is NOT going to take the steps necessary to achieve his prayer. He is waiting for God's answer. But the guy who didn't pray - and simply got off his ass and did something - is the guy who will be successful. Prayer lulls the believer into complacency. IMHO

04-17-2003, 03:30 PM	#20
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Tercel: *Actually, I think "give us today our daily bread" is a not-so-subtle dual reminder 1. not* to pray "to be able to afford a brand new car in a year's time", I don't see the connection. and 2. of our continued dependency on God and that we should be living our (spiritual lives atleast) that we are continually dependent upon God's bread daily.** And if "I'm totally dependent on God", then God must be running on autopilot. At least, I've never heard a deep voice coming out of the sky telling me "I'm real, and not a fiction like all those other deities."

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