Freethought & Rationalism Archive

palom · 03-26-2002, 03:32 PM

One proof of the existence of God, a friend tells me, is the miracle of the Virgin of Guadalupe. Acoording to him In 1523, just two years after the Aztec capital of Tenochitlan fell to Hern�n Cort�s and his Conquistadors, the first Roman Catholic missionaries arrivd to begin the religious conquest of Mexico. Among their first converts was a man baptized with the Christian name Juan Diego. On the chilly morning of December 9, 1531, Juan Diego crossed the barren hill called Tepeyac to attend Mass. He was brought to a sudden halt by a blinding light and the sound of heavenly music. Before him appeared an astounding vision--a beautiful dark-skinned woman who, calling the Indian "my son", declared herself to be the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. She told Juan Diego it was her desire to have a church built on Tepeyac hill, and asked him to relay that message to Bishop Juan de Zumarraga.It was no easy task for the humble Indian to be granted an audience with the top prelate, but the persistent Juan Diego was finally admitted. The incredulous Bishop demanded that he be provided with some proof of the unlikely encounter. Confused and fearful, Juan Diego avoided Tepeyac for several days, but on December 12, while rushing to find a priest to attend a seriously ill uncle, he took a short cut across the hill. The Virgin once again appeared and Juan Diego told her of the Bishop's request. The Virgin instructed him to pick roses from the usually barren and desolate hill and deliver them to Zumarraga as the sign.
Juan Diego gathered up the miraculous blossoms in his mantle and hurried off to complete his mission. Once again before the Bishop, he let the roses spill out before him. To the wonder of all assembled, a perfect image of La Virgen of Guadalupe was revealed emblazoned on Juan Diego's cloak.
Juan Diego's mantle, carefully preserved in the new Basilica, has been subjected to extensive analysis over the years. Experts have authenticated the fabric as dating to the 16th century, but have been unable to determine the type of pigment from which the image was rendered. It seems doubtful that in the Colonial era in Mexico human hands were capable of creating a portrait of its exquisite nature. It is even doubtful it can be done in Mexico today. Most wonderous of all, after 465 years, the image of the Virgen de Guadalupe remains clearly imprinted on the miraculous cloak without visible signs of deterioration. Also, the phenomenon of the mysterious eyes of the image of Virgin of Guadalupe has puzzled science for years. Digital technology, however, is helping researchers gain a greater understanding of the image. The Virgin of Guadalupe, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to Catholicism. Recently in Rome, engineer Jose Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies discussed results of research into the image at a conference. For more than 20 years, he has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough fiber fabric of Juan Diego's tilma. The Virgin's eyes especially intrigued Tonsmann.

Although the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and pupils of the eyes in the image contain a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, said Tonsmann. The same people are shown in both eyes, in different proportions, as would occur when human eyes reflect the objects in front of them. Tonsmann believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on December 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, containing the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumarraga and other witnesses in the room.

Tonsmann used a digital process used by space probes and satellites to transmit visual information. He insists that the image "has not been painted by the human hand." As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that painting such an image in a fabric of that texture would be impossible. The "ayate" fibers used by Indians, in fact, deteriorated after 20 years. The image and the fabric it's printed on, however, have lasted almost 470 years. Tonsmann noted that Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, found that the image did not contain natural, animal, or mineral colorings. Since synthetic colorings did not exist in 1531, the image is inexplicable.

In 1979, Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and were stunned to learn that there was not a trace of paint on the fabric and it had not been treated with any kind of technique. "[How] it is possible to explain this image and its consistency in time without colors, on a fabric that has not been treated?" Tonsmann asked. "[How] is it possible that, despite the fact there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?"

Tonsmann added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands."

Tonsmann started his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, using mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the very moment Juan Diego unrolled his tilma in front of the bishop, Tonsmann said. Tonsmann says it is possible to discern a seated Indian, gazing toward the heavens; the profile of an elderly balding man with a white beard, similar to a portrait of Bishop Zumarraga; and a younger man who was probably interpreter Juan Gonzalez. Another Indian is also present. Tonsmann believes it is likely Juan Diego. Also present is a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave working in the bishop's service, and a man with Spanish features. Tonsmann says the Virgin's eyes show sort of an instant picture of what was happening the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop.

In addition, the center of the pupils shows, on a much more reduced scale, another scene independent of the first. The scene shows an Indian family made up of a woman, a man, and several children. The right eye shows other people standing behind the woman.

Tonsmann ventured to guess why he believes the Virgin's eyes have a "hidden" message for today, when technology allows science to discover it. "This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin's eye," he said, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world."

My friend's argument seems pretty compelling. I'd like to hear your responses.

Mageth · 03-26-2002, 03:38 PM

I've got some swampland in Florida for a good price, if you're interested...

lpetrich · 03-26-2002, 03:57 PM

I wonder what all the Protestants here will say about that one.

Especially believers in the Shroud of Turin.

And I wonder when people will start taking the Cloak of Kandahar seriously.

Mageth · 03-26-2002, 04:06 PM

One proof of the existence of God

Note: it's not a proof of the existence of god, at most (if all you posted is true, which I doubt) it's a proof of the existence of a really strange cloak. Aliens from the 9th planet could have done it. Just look at this shirt:

hinduwoman · 03-26-2002, 04:19 PM

Palom, have you actually seen these things with your own eyes? After all millions of Muslims believe that in Germany there is a tree whose branches are in the shape of Arabic verses from Koran and that the trachea in human lungs spell out Allah in Arabic.
The believer sees many things because he wants to do so and not because it is actually there.

palom · 03-26-2002, 04:26 PM

Give me solid references that I can dig up and show my friend.

lpetrich · 03-26-2002, 07:53 PM

Here are some <a href="http://hyderabad.bravepages.com/Testimon.htm" target="_blank">Islamic miracles</a>; there are numerous Islamic-miracle fruits and vegetables, like a certain <a href="http://www.geocities.com/nigi786/AllahSigns.html" target="_blank">certain famous Islamic tomato</a>.

Have a good chuckle.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Bill Snedden · 03-26-2002, 07:55 PM

Sorry to disappoint you, but no "references" are needed to debunk this ridiculous claim.

The supposed "images" and their story can be found <a href="http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

As can be plainly seen, these "images" are produced by the same sort of innate human process that creates BVMs in building windows, Jesuses in tree bark and stains and faces in the clouds and on the moon.

Humans have a well-documented innate ability to seek out and recognize patterns, even where no patterns actually exist. Faces are particularly strongly sought out.

These VoG images are in no way unequivocal pictures of that which their supporters claim. IMO, they are seeing what they want to see and nothing more. The same way others see Jesus' face in a muffin and Moses' in a bagel.

I'd also like to know in what peer-reviewed journals Drs. Callahan (an entymologist) and Smith published their results. Hopefully not one published by the Institute for Guadalupan Studies (the group that "discovered" the amazing "images" in the Virgin's eyes).

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]</p>

leonarde · 03-26-2002, 09:18 PM

Palom,
I'm the Shroud of Turin nut on another thread
and I too have been curious about the Lady of
Guadalupe appearance (especially in recent years
when I started reading about Cortes and the Conquest). I have found VERY little info on it,
though I'm usually very good at finding such.
I understand that there IS some sort of paint on
the cloak that had the image but this may just have been touchup work, not the ORIGINAL image
on the cloak.
Let us know if you find any BOOK or URL that
is very good on the question.
Cheers!

99Percent · 03-26-2002, 09:30 PM

palom: One proof of the existence of God, a friend tells me, is the miracle of the Virgin of Guadalupe. Acoording to him In 1523, just two years after the Aztec capital of Tenochitlan fell to Hern�n Cort�s and his Conquistadors...

Don't you find it highly suspicious that God decided to show his "proof" just two years after the fall of the Aztecs? Why would he wait until the Spanish conquistadores came? Why would he allow the ritual killing of thousands of human Aztec sacrifices to a false god until the "holy" spaniards came?

I rather believe that this Guadalupe thing was made up to help convert the already eager Aztecs.

03-26-2002, 03:32 PM	#1
palom Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5	Miracle of the Virgin of Guadalupe One proof of the existence of God, a friend tells me, is the miracle of the Virgin of Guadalupe. Acoording to him In 1523, just two years after the Aztec capital of Tenochitlan fell to Hern�n Cort�s and his Conquistadors, the first Roman Catholic missionaries arrivd to begin the religious conquest of Mexico. Among their first converts was a man baptized with the Christian name Juan Diego. On the chilly morning of December 9, 1531, Juan Diego crossed the barren hill called Tepeyac to attend Mass. He was brought to a sudden halt by a blinding light and the sound of heavenly music. Before him appeared an astounding vision--a beautiful dark-skinned woman who, calling the Indian "my son", declared herself to be the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. She told Juan Diego it was her desire to have a church built on Tepeyac hill, and asked him to relay that message to Bishop Juan de Zumarraga.It was no easy task for the humble Indian to be granted an audience with the top prelate, but the persistent Juan Diego was finally admitted. The incredulous Bishop demanded that he be provided with some proof of the unlikely encounter. Confused and fearful, Juan Diego avoided Tepeyac for several days, but on December 12, while rushing to find a priest to attend a seriously ill uncle, he took a short cut across the hill. The Virgin once again appeared and Juan Diego told her of the Bishop's request. The Virgin instructed him to pick roses from the usually barren and desolate hill and deliver them to Zumarraga as the sign. Juan Diego gathered up the miraculous blossoms in his mantle and hurried off to complete his mission. Once again before the Bishop, he let the roses spill out before him. To the wonder of all assembled, a perfect image of La Virgen of Guadalupe was revealed emblazoned on Juan Diego's cloak. Juan Diego's mantle, carefully preserved in the new Basilica, has been subjected to extensive analysis over the years. Experts have authenticated the fabric as dating to the 16th century, but have been unable to determine the type of pigment from which the image was rendered. It seems doubtful that in the Colonial era in Mexico human hands were capable of creating a portrait of its exquisite nature. It is even doubtful it can be done in Mexico today. Most wonderous of all, after 465 years, the image of the Virgen de Guadalupe remains clearly imprinted on the miraculous cloak without visible signs of deterioration. Also, the phenomenon of the mysterious eyes of the image of Virgin of Guadalupe has puzzled science for years. Digital technology, however, is helping researchers gain a greater understanding of the image. The Virgin of Guadalupe, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to Catholicism. Recently in Rome, engineer Jose Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies discussed results of research into the image at a conference. For more than 20 years, he has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough fiber fabric of Juan Diego's tilma. The Virgin's eyes especially intrigued Tonsmann. Although the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and pupils of the eyes in the image contain a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, said Tonsmann. The same people are shown in both eyes, in different proportions, as would occur when human eyes reflect the objects in front of them. Tonsmann believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on December 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, containing the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumarraga and other witnesses in the room. Tonsmann used a digital process used by space probes and satellites to transmit visual information. He insists that the image "has not been painted by the human hand." As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that painting such an image in a fabric of that texture would be impossible. The "ayate" fibers used by Indians, in fact, deteriorated after 20 years. The image and the fabric it's printed on, however, have lasted almost 470 years. Tonsmann noted that Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, found that the image did not contain natural, animal, or mineral colorings. Since synthetic colorings did not exist in 1531, the image is inexplicable. In 1979, Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and were stunned to learn that there was not a trace of paint on the fabric and it had not been treated with any kind of technique. "[How] it is possible to explain this image and its consistency in time without colors, on a fabric that has not been treated?" Tonsmann asked. "[How] is it possible that, despite the fact there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?" Tonsmann added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands." Tonsmann started his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, using mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the very moment Juan Diego unrolled his tilma in front of the bishop, Tonsmann said. Tonsmann says it is possible to discern a seated Indian, gazing toward the heavens; the profile of an elderly balding man with a white beard, similar to a portrait of Bishop Zumarraga; and a younger man who was probably interpreter Juan Gonzalez. Another Indian is also present. Tonsmann believes it is likely Juan Diego. Also present is a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave working in the bishop's service, and a man with Spanish features. Tonsmann says the Virgin's eyes show sort of an instant picture of what was happening the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop. In addition, the center of the pupils shows, on a much more reduced scale, another scene independent of the first. The scene shows an Indian family made up of a woman, a man, and several children. The right eye shows other people standing behind the woman. Tonsmann ventured to guess why he believes the Virgin's eyes have a "hidden" message for today, when technology allows science to discover it. "This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin's eye," he said, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world." My friend's argument seems pretty compelling. I'd like to hear your responses.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-26-2002, 03:38 PM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I've got some swampland in Florida for a good price, if you're interested...

03-26-2002, 03:57 PM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I wonder what all the Protestants here will say about that one. Especially believers in the Shroud of Turin. And I wonder when people will start taking the Cloak of Kandahar seriously.

03-26-2002, 04:06 PM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	One proof of the existence of God Note: it's not a proof of the existence of god, at most (if all you posted is true, which I doubt) it's a proof of the existence of a really strange cloak. Aliens from the 9th planet could have done it. Just look at this shirt:

03-26-2002, 04:19 PM	#5
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Palom, have you actually seen these things with your own eyes? After all millions of Muslims believe that in Germany there is a tree whose branches are in the shape of Arabic verses from Koran and that the trachea in human lungs spell out Allah in Arabic. The believer sees many things because he wants to do so and not because it is actually there.

03-26-2002, 04:26 PM	#6
palom Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5	Give me solid references that I can dig up and show my friend.

03-26-2002, 07:53 PM	#7
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Here are some <a href="http://hyderabad.bravepages.com/Testimon.htm" target="_blank">Islamic miracles</a>; there are numerous Islamic-miracle fruits and vegetables, like a certain <a href="http://www.geocities.com/nigi786/AllahSigns.html" target="_blank">certain famous Islamic tomato</a>. Have a good chuckle. [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

03-26-2002, 07:55 PM	#8
Bill Snedden Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,597	Sorry to disappoint you, but no "references" are needed to debunk this ridiculous claim. The supposed "images" and their story can be found <a href="http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html" target="_blank">here</a>. As can be plainly seen, these "images" are produced by the same sort of innate human process that creates BVMs in building windows, Jesuses in tree bark and stains and faces in the clouds and on the moon. Humans have a well-documented innate ability to seek out and recognize patterns, even where no patterns actually exist. Faces are particularly strongly sought out. These VoG images are in no way unequivocal pictures of that which their supporters claim. IMO, they are seeing what they want to see and nothing more. The same way others see Jesus' face in a muffin and Moses' in a bagel. I'd also like to know in what peer-reviewed journals Drs. Callahan (an entymologist) and Smith published their results. Hopefully not one published by the Institute for Guadalupan Studies (the group that "discovered" the amazing "images" in the Virgin's eyes). Regards, Bill Snedden [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]</p>

03-26-2002, 09:18 PM	#9
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Palom, I'm the Shroud of Turin nut on another thread and I too have been curious about the Lady of Guadalupe appearance (especially in recent years when I started reading about Cortes and the Conquest). I have found VERY little info on it, though I'm usually very good at finding such. I understand that there IS some sort of paint on the cloak that had the image but this may just have been touchup work, not the ORIGINAL image on the cloak. Let us know if you find any BOOK or URL that is very good on the question. Cheers!

03-26-2002, 09:30 PM	#10
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	palom: One proof of the existence of God, a friend tells me, is the miracle of the Virgin of Guadalupe. Acoording to him In 1523, just two years after the Aztec capital of Tenochitlan fell to Hern�n Cort�s and his Conquistadors... Don't you find it highly suspicious that God decided to show his "proof" just two years after the fall of the Aztecs? Why would he wait until the Spanish conquistadores came? Why would he allow the ritual killing of thousands of human Aztec sacrifices to a false god until the "holy" spaniards came? I rather believe that this Guadalupe thing was made up to help convert the already eager Aztecs.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.