Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 06-20-2003, 06:41 AM

I have been thinking about this for a while and I seem to be coming up empty again...

It seems that originally, the idea of a son - was a metaphor for "mankind" - that which came forth from the act of creation (or procreation) between heavenly figures (from ancient creation epics). One of these figures was wisdom (per ancient Jewish beliefs) and later was eheumerized to a virgin woman (whose archetypes can include Isis, Semele, Mary etc) who brings forth a son with a purpose. This creation story, it seems, evolved over time as various cultures syncretized and the son acquired a salvific function and metamorphized to Mithras, Jesus, Horus etc.
In think that in understanding who the virgin was, we may then understand who the Logos was.
Doherty writes:

Quote:

Ancient views of myth had, by the first century, been dramatically affected by Platonic philosophy. Even though processes continued to operate in a similar fashion, the time and place of mythical happenings had largely been shifted from the distant primordial past to a higher world of spiritual realities. (Whether the average devotee of the mystery cults adopted the Platonic outlook or still regarded the myths as inhabiting a prehistoric past is impossible to say, as we have no surviving record of the views of the common people in these matters. But all the expressions we do have, indicate a higher-lower world mentality.) Instead of looking back to archaic beginnings, religious ritual could reach into that parallel, upper dimension and find its paradigms, its spiritual forces, right there. In this higher world, the myths of the savior gods and of earliest Christianity had taken place. Here Attis was castrated, here Mithras had slain the bull, here Osiris had been dismembered. For more sophisticated thinkers like Plutarch and the 4th century Sallustius, such mythical stories were not literal, but merely symbolic of timeless spiritual processes which the human mind had difficulty grasping. See, for example, Plutarch�s Isis and Osiris, chapter 11.

Among the interesting documents that have been "discovered" in the past includes 42 hymns similar to Psalms called the Odes of solomon and considered to have been written in the second half of the first century.

I have been looking at Dohertys take on Odes of Solomon and particularly Ode 19 (as translated by R. Harris and A. Mingana):

Quote:

1 A cup of milk was offered to me,
and I drank it in the sweetness of the delight of the Lord.
2 The son is the cup
and he who has milked is the father;
and he who milked him is the Holy spirit....
4 And the Holy Spirit opened her bosom,
and mingled the milk of the two breasts of the father...
5 And gave the mixture to the world without their knowing,
And those who take (it) are in the fullness of the right hand.
6 The womb of the virgin took (it)
and she received conception and brought forth...
8 And she [labored] and brought forth a son without...pain,]
For it did not happen without purpose...

Doherty notes:

Quote:

Considering that in Ode 33, the "perfect virgin" is clearly a reference to personified wisdom announcing the sort of message one finds in Wisdom's mouth of Proverbs and Sirach 24, any suggestion that here in Ode 19 that it constitutes a reference to Mary is misplaced. This passage is not about history, it is poetic allegory. The Odist is presenting a symbolic picture of the relationship between various aspects of the Godhead. He uses the metaphor of divine milk, with four divine personages involved in dispensing it to humanity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Wisdom (the Virgin). Wisdom in some ancient Jewish traditions is a kind of consort to the father; Philo sometimes makes her mother to the Logos. These are poetic, allegorical ways of representing the workings of the deity. The end result is the translation of God's knowledge and peace, which itself bestows perfection and salvation (verse 5). The Gospel son puts no appearance here, nor does any idea of salvation effected through his death and resurrection
...
In the formative period of the first century, when no historical Jesus had yet set foot on the scene, all were expressions of the new "intermediary son" philosophy, all conceived of different routes to salvation through him. As in most such uncoordinated movements, centripetal forces eventually pulled this diversity into a common central pool, and the strongest, most advantageous and most appealing elements established themselves as a new core, a new "orthodoxy". This later development then became the standard by which the earlier manifestations were evaluated, and the present was read into the past

Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle p.134 [Emphasis mine]

So in the Odes, we have a virgin, but its not Mary. The father pours milk from his breast (this is semen of course) and the womb of the virgin takes it, conceives and gives birth to a son. That is, according to the Ode.

In the Sheperd of Hermas, we also have a son (of God), but he is not referred to Jesus or Christ and is devoid of human features.

Lets look around...further back perhaps.

Samuel Kramer in History Begins at Sumer quotes from a sumerian poem:

Smooth, big Earth made herself resplendent, beautified her body joyously
Wide Earth bedecked herself with diorite, chalcedony, and shiny carnelian.
Heaven arrayed himself in a wig of verdure, stood up in princeship.
Holy Earth, the virgin, beautified herself for Holy Heaven.
Heaven, the lofty god, planted his knees on wide Earth,
Poured the semen of the heroes Tree and Reed into her womb.
Sweet Earth, the fecund cow, was impregnated with the rich semen of Heaven
Joyfully did Earth tend to the giving birth of the plants of life,
Luxuriantly she brought forth rich produce, and gave birth to wine and honey.

From this quotation and others in the Epic of Gilgamesh and Astra Hasis one can deduce that the ancient sumerians believed that "life" came from the sky and that heaven fecundated the virgin earth with life after "falling" down on it - and of course, the Egyptian sphinx represented heaven "resurrecting" back after falling down on earth.

In like manner, Osiris and Isis (Mother Earth) "united" and brought forth Horus. We have Horus asking his mother (I think Plutarch is among one of the early people to talk about the Isis Osiris relationship symbolically ):

"And how was it, mother, then, that Earth received God's Efflux? And Isis said: "I may not tell the story of (this) birth; for it is not permitted to describe the origin of thy descent..."

In Egyptian Pyramid Texts, we find another account of creation where Atum masturbates in Heliopolis and the twins Shu and Tefnut are born (its inferred from it that since Shu and Tefnut were the Semen from Atum - they originated via virgin births).

In The Gospel of Philip as quoted by Elaine Pagels in The Gnostic Gospels, there is a passage that refers to the earth as a virgin:

Quote:

Adam came into being from two virgins, from the spirit and from the virgin earth

And in another passage (Ibid):

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Is it permitted to utter such a mystery? The father of All United with the virgin who came down

From Ethiopian Kebra Nagast:

Quote:

In her (Mary), he (Christ) made a temple of her pure body, and from her was born the Light of all Lights...he made a Temple for himself through and incomprehensible wisdom which transcends the mind of man

So, where does Mary come in?

Alan Alford, in When the Gods Came Down, explains that Mary was a metaphorical planet (temple) from which the light of all lights (the Christ) would rise up and reconstruct a metaphysical temple in heaven:

Quote:

In further support of this hypothesis, it is worth noting that the name "Mary" can be traced to the land of ancient Egypt, which was called tameri, meaning the place of the Mr (even Hebrew name Miriam can be traced to Mr). The "Mr" was the Egyptian name for Pyramid, and appropriately enough the Egyptian pyramid was a structure which symbolized the earth (and possibly heaven in its image).
Therefore, whilst the pyramid (Mr) symbolized Earth and was the ascension place of Osiris, it might equally be said that the Virgin Mary personified the Earth and was a similar ascencion place for the primeval God to whom she gave birth - Jesus Christ.

Alan Alford When the Gods Came Down, p.391.

Is it possible that Mark could have been familiar with these ancient "mysteries", used midrash (or mimesis), and combined it with the PN (from whatever source - Philo's Against Flaccus, the OT etc) to come up with the Jerusalem Tradition?

From Proverbs 8:1-36:

Quote:

By the Gate, Wisdom calls aloud: 'Men, it is you I call...I am wisdom, I bestow shrewdness, and show the way to knowledge and prudence...The Lord created me the beginning of his works...when he set the heavens in their place I was there...I was at the Lords side each day..

In 3:19:

Quote:

In Wisdom the Lord founded the earth and by understanding he set the heavens in their place

We have Hellenistic Jews like Philo (and whoever wrote the book of Proverbs) personifying wisdom by the virgin. She is female and has a status and personality of her own. And we have the Sumerians and Egyptians own "understanding" of the cosmos.

Doherty notes:

Quote:

There are two important aspects of wisdom here. First, she is "pre-existent", that is, she was with God in heaven before the creation of the world. And she is associated with God in that work, serving as an instrument in the process of creation.

The Jesus Puzzle, p.89
He cites Baruch 3:37

Quote:

thereupon wisdom appeared on earth and lived among men

John 1:34:

Quote:

The Logos (word) became flesh and dwelt among us

In Summary, the Origin of the Jewish virgin was:
Wisdom (female) -> virgin woman - > Mary (and perharps, - > Christ)
As the story evolved, ideologies like Platonism incorporated paradigmatic relationship between events on earth and heaven while retaining the basic story. Gnostics claimed to have revelatory ways of experiencing the wisdom (the Logos) and so on and then Mark placed the son somewhere on on earth... (and Price noted in Deconstructing Jesus that the Gospels were anachronistic)

Any takers?

Toto · 06-20-2003, 11:45 AM

It makes sense to me. Just a few nitpicks:

Quote:

Is it possible that Mark could have been familiar with these ancient "mysteries", used midrash (or mimesis), and combined it with the PN (from whatever source - Philo's Against Flaccus, the OT etc) to come up with the Jerusalem Tradition?

I don't think you can credit this to the author of Mark. There is no virgin birth in gMark, but the author of Mark does refer to Mary as Jesus' mother. And as I recall, Mark includes all of Jesus' family, including Mary, among the people who don't understand him. In fact, once you get beyond the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke, Mary is just another character with no particularly goddess-like qualities or claim to wisdom.

But I don't think that this has to be completely fatal to your theory. Certainly your theory explains why this otherwise clueless woman from the gospel narrative was elevated by the Catholic Church to be the Queen of Heaven, and probably why the name Mary was chosen.

Ted Hoffman · 06-23-2003, 02:22 AM

Quote:

I don't think you can credit this to the author of Mark. There is no virgin birth in gMark, but the author of Mark does refer to Mary as Jesus' mother.

True. But then we have those that argue that Mark was derived from a proto-gospel (L) - locally, we have Yuri. Maybe L had the virgin Mary. Mark, after writing about JBap, suddenly brings Jesus into the scene without providing us any background info about his birth. This is how the Jesus character makes an entry in Mark:

Mark 1:9 "At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. "

Maybe the beginning of Mark is missing too - just like its end. Or maybe Mark (for whatever reason) omitted the virgin birth part of the story. What are the chances that Mt, Luke and John, copying from Mark, invented their own virgin birth for Jesus? Perharps this is an idea worthy of research.

Quote:

And as I recall, Mark includes all of Jesus' family, including Mary, among the people who don't understand him. In fact, once you get beyond the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke, Mary is just another character with no particularly goddess-like qualities or claim to wisdom.

True again. But having a virgin Mary and a Mary that is a prostitute can be traced back to the sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh - but that is another story.

Quote:

Certainly your theory explains why this otherwise clueless woman from the gospel narrative was elevated by the Catholic Church to be the Queen of Heaven, and probably why the name Mary was chosen.

You are too kind. I think the story has evolved - at one time (the early times), the woman is elevated - as a "creator"/giver of life/godess , at another time and culture, the son is - as a saviour figure or as a god.

I remember the catholic prayer that goes "...holy Mary, mother of God, blessed art you among all women...pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death amen".
In some cultures/religions, the madonna was elevated. In the gospels, Jesus is - everyone else assumes a mundane role. Hence the treatment given to the Marys in the Gospels.

mark9950 · 06-25-2003, 01:44 AM

You got it.I did.

GakuseiDon · 06-25-2003, 06:58 AM

Quote:

We have Hellenistic Jews like Philo (and whoever wrote the book of Proverbs) personifying wisdom by the virgin. She is female and has a status and personality of her own.

Where does Philo do that? I'd be interested in seeing a reference to that.

Ted Hoffman · 06-25-2003, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
You got it.I did.

Pardon me but what do you mean? You agree with my "hypothesis"?

Ted Hoffman · 06-25-2003, 07:54 AM

To my delight and surprise, Wisdom as the Image of God explores this very subject of wisdom, personification, the way the "chauvinistic" and strongly patriarchial Judeo-Christian mindset had the women (Ishtar, Sophia, Isis, Gaia) "overrun" and replaced by the Logos and Christ...

And even how wisdom evolved:

Quote:

The following diagram shows the divergence of Sophia from Logos in Catholic scripture:

Proverbs-> Sirach->Wisdom (Sophia is born)->James' Mary ->Mary->John's Logos->Jesus....

The illustration for Protestants is:

Proverbs - >(God is silent) ->John's Logos -> Jesus.

I must admit, I am excited by this. Very

.
This is what I have been saying! A like mind!

Quote:

II. Wisdom in Scriptural Overview

1. If we are to make any case at all for the worship of Sophia / God, we must accept the authority of both Old and New Testaments and the Deuterocanonical (Apocryphal) writings; the latter being accepted mainly by Roman and Orthodox Christians. The Deuterocanonicals provide the theological "bridge" over the four-hundred year gap between the Testaments, although they are not considered to be inspired by most Protestant and Evangelical bodies.
2. Overview of Wisdom in Scripture: Hokma and Sophia, words in Hebrew and Greek respectively, meaning "wisdom," are feminine in gender. When wisdom is personified in scripture, wisdom become womanly, as a woman or a female spirit. Biblical wisdom literature as a body unfolds to reveal itself as a herald of the New Covenant. In Proverbs, Wisdom calls to those who would become her children, inviting them to surrender to her care. The immovable object is encountered (by wisdom) in Job, confining the expectancy of gain to the present only (Qoheleth / Ecclesiastes). Failing to understand the meaning of hardship in life, the seeker turns to faith in God's wisdom as revealed by Sirach. Through faith, hope is discerned beyond the confines of the present world order (Daniel), with those of "the elect," who have obeyed her, assured of victory over death (Wisdom of Solomon).

The concepts of Sophia and Logos become blurred by the late first century B.C.E., and wisdom personified as Logos, i.e. Jesus Christ, defeats death entirely and opens the door of salvation gnosis to all who will believe and follow.

In short, though wisdom begins as the wise counsel of teachers in the earliest biblical literature, Wisdom becomes a person by 100 or so B.C.E., and that person becomes Jesus by the end of the first century. Thus the Jewish concept of wisdom develops over the course of 700 years from clever anecdotes spoken by a wise woman to the apocalyptic judgment of the Cosmic Christ in the latest biblical literature.

III. Wisdom Personified - The quickest and least painful way to follow the evolution of wisdom through biblical literature is by the stepping-stones of the personification passages (i.e. wisdom as a person). These include Proverbs 8 & 9, Sirach 1, 24, & 51, Wisdom of Solomon 6 - 9, John 1:1-17, Luke 7:35 & 11:49, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1:3,4 & 4:12-13. (One needs a Catholic or ecumenical Bible to follow along.)

1. c. 960 - 540 B.C.E. - Proverbs divorces God from corporate Israel and spirituality, providing instead practical advice for maximizing temporal life. Wisdom is personified allegorically as the speaker of important maxims, taking on many attributes of God in Proverbs. Wisdom is a wise woman. Like the prophet (Is 40:3), she "cries out in the street" (1:20), promising to "pour out her spirit" (1:23b). Her calling and spirit have the same effect as the spirit of God (8:14 compared with Job 12:13). Like Yahweh in Isaiah 55:1-3, she has a sacrificial meal: "Come eat my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed" (9:5), she beckons her lovers. Such a meal is a prototype of Jesus' parable of the marriage

feast in Matthew 22:1-14. According to Proverbs, Wisdom is the first creation of God (18:22b) (like the Logos of the pagan Hericletus [5th century B.C.E.] and the Jew Philo [1st century C.E.]). Wisdom rejoiced at witnessing creation, though playing only a spectator's role. Now Wisdom has come to Earth to offer herself to humanity (8:31). She possesses the attributes of the messianic king of Israel (Is 11:2) and of God (Job 12:13, 16) (8:6-26). The concept of personified Wisdom as "divine agent" in creation is established and found again many times in scripture.

On Earth, Wisdom is virtuous and desirable, her appeal is cosmic, transcending law or doctrine: "whoever is simple, leave simpleness and live" (9:4a,6a), she proclaims to all worldlings. Her reward is a life of happiness and prosperity (8:34), which can be found only through devotion to her. (Yet remember, although wisdom is personified in Proverbs, it is so only for the sake of allegory.)

2. c. 190 B.C.E. (350 years later) - Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus) is a pre-Hasmonean, inter-testamental tome of wisdom written when Israel was under the rule of the Seleucids (Syrian Greeks). It's teachings may be a forerunner of the doctrines of the Sadducees; there is no thought of the supernatural nor afterlife in Sirach. Wisdom was spoken into existence by God, and was the holy spirit hovering over the waters of creation (24:3). Although cosmic, she is specifically sent to dwell in Jerusalem (24:11) to work toward the redemption of Israel. Wisdom is found as a result of obedience to the Law of Moses.

Thus, by equating wisdom with law (torah), Sirach seeks to bring Israel back to law and national unity.

The personification of wisdom in Sirach is much more developed than in Proverbs. Sirach writes that he "fixed on her my soul's desires, and with cleansing, I discovered her" (51:20). He testifies of his longing for her (51:13-22, and acrostic poem), and finally finds her through the law (20b). Rather than eating her bread at a sacrificial meal, in her evolution to actual personhood, she becomes the meal: "Those who eat me will hunger for more, and those who drink me will thirst for more" (24:21,22). Wisdom lives forever as the Torah.

3. c. 50 B.C.E. (140 years later) - In the Wisdom of Solomon, a pseudepigraphy, one finds the classical concepts of logos and sophia united for the first time (18:15,16). Sophia / Wisdom becomes an actual being - a "spirit, a friend to man" (1:6). Sophia is the holy spirit, active in creation, redemption, and kingdom-style living - she is invulnerable, omnipotent, omniscient, and "penetrating through all" (7:22,23). Wisdom of Solomon embellishes Sirach's concept of "wisdom as law" to a very New

Testament sounding conclusion:

Love of her is the keeping of her laws,

and giving heed to her laws is the assurance of immortality,

and immortality brings one near to God;

so the desire for Wisdom leads to a kingdom.

Pseudo-Solomon also equates the lady Sophia / Wisdom, a spirit, with God (7:7b); she is God's breath, power, pure emanation, reflection, image and mirror.

4. c. 70 C.E. (120 years later) - The concept of the Logos has superseded the function of Sophia, taking on all the previous characteristics of intertestamental wisdom, plus others, including maleness. In the Gospel According to John, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Logos (1:17) who was not only with God in creation, and was an agent through which creation came to be, but was God as well (1:1-3). The Logos came to Jerusalem, as did Sirach's Sophia, but did not stay, like 1 Enoch's Wisdom (1 Enoch 42:1,2), ascending back into Heaven. The Logos became human, and lived among humans. All who would accept the Logos would become sons and daughters of God.

5. c. 70 C.E. - The Gospel According to Luke has Jesus referring to himself (so it seems) as "the Wisdom of God" (7:35 & 11:49). If so, this gospel writer, who never mentions the concept of Logos, may have Jesus equating himself with Sophia. Too little evidence exists to make a definitive connection here.

6. c. 70 C.E. - Curiously, the writer of Hebrews refers to the Logos as if he were the Sophia of Sirach and Wisdom: he is living and active, he is penetrating soul and spirit, he is judging thoughts, he sees all creation, to him we must give account (4:12-13). Likewise, the writer of Colossians calls the Son of God "the image of God," "firstborn of creation" (as in Philo), agent in creation, creator, the power which holds the universe together, possessing the pleroma of God, yet present on earth in human flesh. In fact, portions of Colossians 1 may be directly paraphrased from the Pseudo-Solomon's description of Sophia.

7. In summary, personified wisdom evolves from the speaker of proverbs to being the incarnation of the Torah to the agent in creation, to a holy spirit and the image of God descending to earth and rising again, to become one with God, to enfleshment in the man Jesus of Nazareth, to a life-giving spirit.

PS: Jackson Snyder is apparently a theist with a Masters in Divinity.

Radcliffe Emerson · 06-25-2003, 08:11 AM

Do you mean the original Virgin Mary who gave miraculous birth to Buddha, or the one Christians stole from the Buddhist myth to tack onto their own?

Toto · 06-25-2003, 11:21 AM

Wisdom was a wise woman to the writer of Proverbs, but the Christians portray Sophia = Wisdom as an old man.

The primary cathedral for 1000 years in eastern Christianity was Hagia Sophia, "the Holy Wisdom of Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity."

There is a Greek Orthodox cathedral in Los Angeles, known locally as St. Sophia. However, they explain in their church tour that the cathedral was not named after a female saint named Sophia, but after "holy wisdom", and their iconic representation of "Holy Wisdom" can be viewed here - an old man with a long grey beard.

Geoff Hudson · 06-25-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
I have been thinking about this for a while and I seem to be coming up empty again...

Mary was a real person, probably the daughter of a high priest (hence she was a virgin - pure) who was betrothed to Joseph Caiaphas also a high priest, but she did not stay with him. Mary had nothing to do with Jesus who you know I think never existed. I could elaborate. The mythology surrounding Mary is ****.

Geoff

06-25-2003, 01:44 AM	#4
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	I think You got it.I did.

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06-25-2003, 08:11 AM	#8
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Do you mean the original Virgin Mary who gave miraculous birth to Buddha, or the one Christians stole from the Buddhist myth to tack onto their own?

06-25-2003, 11:21 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Wisdom was a wise woman to the writer of Proverbs, but the Christians portray Sophia = Wisdom as an old man. The primary cathedral for 1000 years in eastern Christianity was Hagia Sophia, "the Holy Wisdom of Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity." There is a Greek Orthodox cathedral in Los Angeles, known locally as St. Sophia. However, they explain in their church tour that the cathedral was not named after a female saint named Sophia, but after "holy wisdom", and their iconic representation of "Holy Wisdom" can be viewed here - an old man with a long grey beard.

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