Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sourdough · 11-21-2002, 05:41 PM

millenium cell.com,works on hydrogen on demand
generator that uses borax as a catalyst to instantly make hydrogen gas from water in cars tank,seems to work,could this be the future?

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: sourdough ]

Chip · 11-21-2002, 06:56 PM

I used to be a member of the Carburetor Research Center (Foyil, Oklahoma), even bought a kit to build my own Pogue like carburetor, which I never built. In their newsletter was a report of a guy who was running a truck on hydrogen produced on demand with aluminum and sodium hydroxide pellets dropped into water. I once pointed out an article in a People magazine (1976) about a guy in France who reported getting more than 100 miles per gallon of water (though he did not give the details) to an accomplished inventor friend of mine. He said that is interesting and brought out the current issue of the San Francisco Chronicle with a report of some one in the SF Bay area claiming to do the same thing. The guy in France later died from a barbituate and alcohol overdose (not a passive death, was it murder?). I never heard any more about the guy in the bay area.

Did you mean to give a link to what you are citing?

Regards, Chip

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Chip ]

Shake · 11-22-2002, 10:22 AM

OK, here's a 'Skepticism' response to this topic. Yeah, it's probably possible and even practical, just all the patents and information are owned by the oil companies and auto manufacturers who'll finally implement them once they realize our oil supply is dwindling to nothing.

Me, I'll probably get one of those hybrid cars in a few years, or maybe true electrics will be a little more practical by then. Still a good ol' H2O-powered vehicle would be nice.

simian · 11-22-2002, 11:05 AM

Very doubtful. Here's why: it takes energy to free hydrogen from oxygen in water. So while, yes, you can use a variety of methods to liberate hydrogen, is it really feasable. I don't know the chemistry, so can't comment on it (it may be right). But there is the issue that you will need a continuous supply of borax. How much is there in the world? I am a bit concerned that borax is described as a catalyst instead of a feedstock.

In fact, if you read <a href="http://www.milleniumcell.com/about/index.html" target="_blank">here</a>, you will see that the starting materials is borax. This borax is then modified into sodium borohydride. The sodium borohydride, in the presence of a catalyst, can (supposedly) liberate hydrogen from water, with the waste material being borates (borax again).

So you start with borax, and end with borax. This tells me what you are doing is putting energy into the borax to make it sodium borohydride. That, in turn, is used to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen (or hydrogen and H2O2 - but I think this one is far less likely). Each of those two steps will be far less than 100 % effecient. Why is this any better than using compressed hydrogen (or other hydrogen storage techniques) and having gas (not petrol) stations to refill? Run electricity through water and get hydrogen at one electrode, oxygen at the other electrode, preseparated. Does the process described at the web site separate hydrogen from oxygen? If not, you can get a very, very, very big boom. General safety concern: yes, hydrogen gas can burn/explode. What can sodium borohydride do?

Perhaps this will be the solution for mobile engines, but I seriously doubt it.

Simian

Vibr8gKiwi · 11-22-2002, 11:11 AM

Someone mentioned on NPR last night that one possibility for the future of hydrogen is an artificially created microbe that is designed and built to separate hydrogen from water molecules.

Also you can get hydrogen and oxygen from water with just electric current.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]

MortalWombat · 11-22-2002, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vibr8gKiwi:
Also you can get hydrogen and oxygen from water with just electric current.

And you can get an almost endless supply of it from the sea if you use solar, wind, and/or wave generated electricity to split the sea water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Corwin · 11-22-2002, 02:47 PM

All of which assumes major breakthroughs in hydrogen storage.

The problem is, hydrogen is the simplest and therefore SMALLEST element in the universe. One proton, one electron. Very small. Small enough, in fact, to seep out of most containers unless they're phenominally dense. (Or use some sort of charged containment system.) Both of these quickly wipe out any efficiency advantage from using hydrogen.

There's been some work recently with metal hydride pellets, (taking a pellet of, let's say draino... (sodium hydroxide) for example...) and dropping it in a solution to break it down. (Like an acid.) The acid (let's say HCL) breaks down the pellets and the sodium in the pellet bonds with the chlorine in the acid, leaving salt and H2. These methods are still experimental enough that details about them are very sparse... (covered under NDA, so they don't make it into the press except in the most general terms) so there's no way to tell as yet how effective they'll be.

There was also a posting on slashdot a while back about a new potential form of battery... a liquid filled container seeded with a form of e. Coli, which broke down food waste liberating free hydrogen. (Or free hydrogen and methane.) Also highly experimental, but potentially very useful.

Coragyps · 11-22-2002, 03:45 PM

Simian: Sodium borohydride + water makes just hydrogen + borax, no oxygen, so it probably isn't all that dangerous. The borohydride in anything like pure form is pretty durn expensive, though, and probably expensive to make on an energy-expended basis.
Chip: Aluminum + sodium hydroxide is a nice way to make hydrogen, but both are extremely energy-intensive to produce, and sodium hydroxide is very nasty to handle.
Corwin: You're confusing "hydride" with "hydroxide." The metal hydride technology I know of is basically aimed toward safer storage of hydrogen gas as a hydride compound with metals like nickel. Certain of these can be made to soak up or give off hydrogen by manipulating temperature and pressure.

Edited to add: The link says that the source of H2 is "sodium borohydride, a borax derivative" - not that they have a handy-dandy way to recycle the borax. That has at least some kinship to saying "hydrogen, a water derivative" - both are true, but don't tell much of the story.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]

Corwin · 11-22-2002, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coragyps:
Simian: Sodium borohydride + water makes just hydrogen + borax, no oxygen, so it probably isn't all that dangerous. The borohydride in anything like pure form is pretty durn expensive, though, and probably expensive to make on an energy-expended basis.
Chip: Aluminum + sodium hydroxide is a nice way to make hydrogen, but both are extremely energy-intensive to produce, and sodium hydroxide is very nasty to handle.
Corwin: You're confusing "hydride" with "hydroxide." The metal hydride technology I know of is basically aimed toward safer storage of hydrogen gas as a hydride compound with metals like nickel. Certain of these can be made to soak up or give off hydrogen by manipulating temperature and pressure.

Edited to add: The link says that the source of H2 is "sodium borohydride, a borax derivative" - not that they have a handy-dandy way to recycle the borax. That has at least some kinship to saying "hydrogen, a water derivative" - both are true, but don't tell much of the story.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]

I was actually just pulling compound names out of various parts of my anatomy for an example.... no news report I've ever seen has listed specific compounds, since they're all highly protected trade secrets covered by NDA, and not released to the press.

I'd be concerned about using nickel hydrides tho.... nickel is actually quite toxic. I'd prefer to see them use something a bit safer, like the atomic batteries that were posted on slashdot last week. (Take a low energy beta emitter, put it inside a thermoelectric shield, and voila, longterm low voltage power from atomic decay.... C14 would be an ideal power source. Cheap to produce, reasonably safe and nontoxic, longterm.)

MortalWombat · 11-22-2002, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin:
The problem is, hydrogen is the simplest and therefore SMALLEST element in the universe. One proton, one electron. Very small. Small enough, in fact, to seep out of most containers unless they're phenominally dense.

Where are you getting your scientific information?

<a href="http://www.scescape.net/~woods/elements/hydrogen.html" target="_blank">Hydrogen</a> has a larger atomic radius (37.1 pm) than <a href="http://www.scescape.net/~woods/elements/helium.html" target="_blank">helium</a> (31 pm). Also keep in mind that hydrogen gas exists as a molecule of 2 atoms of hydrogen, so it's effective atomic radius would be even larger. Sure, hydrogen has the smallest mass of any element, but don't confuse that with physical size.

11-21-2002, 05:41 PM	#1
sourdough Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: one nation under-educated Posts: 1,233	run your car on water millenium cell.com,works on hydrogen on demand generator that uses borax as a catalyst to instantly make hydrogen gas from water in cars tank,seems to work,could this be the future? [ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: sourdough ]</p>

11-21-2002, 06:56 PM	#2
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	I used to be a member of the Carburetor Research Center (Foyil, Oklahoma), even bought a kit to build my own Pogue like carburetor, which I never built. In their newsletter was a report of a guy who was running a truck on hydrogen produced on demand with aluminum and sodium hydroxide pellets dropped into water. I once pointed out an article in a People magazine (1976) about a guy in France who reported getting more than 100 miles per gallon of water (though he did not give the details) to an accomplished inventor friend of mine. He said that is interesting and brought out the current issue of the San Francisco Chronicle with a report of some one in the SF Bay area claiming to do the same thing. The guy in France later died from a barbituate and alcohol overdose (not a passive death, was it murder?). I never heard any more about the guy in the bay area. Did you mean to give a link to what you are citing? Regards, Chip [ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Chip ]</p>

11-22-2002, 11:11 AM	#5
Vibr8gKiwi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: CA, USA Posts: 543	Someone mentioned on NPR last night that one possibility for the future of hydrogen is an artificially created microbe that is designed and built to separate hydrogen from water molecules. Also you can get hydrogen and oxygen from water with just electric current. [ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]</p>

11-22-2002, 03:45 PM	#8
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	Simian: Sodium borohydride + water makes just hydrogen + borax, no oxygen, so it probably isn't all that dangerous. The borohydride in anything like pure form is pretty durn expensive, though, and probably expensive to make on an energy-expended basis. Chip: Aluminum + sodium hydroxide is a nice way to make hydrogen, but both are extremely energy-intensive to produce, and sodium hydroxide is very nasty to handle. Corwin: You're confusing "hydride" with "hydroxide." The metal hydride technology I know of is basically aimed toward safer storage of hydrogen gas as a hydride compound with metals like nickel. Certain of these can be made to soak up or give off hydrogen by manipulating temperature and pressure. Edited to add: The link says that the source of H2 is "sodium borohydride, a borax derivative" - not that they have a handy-dandy way to recycle the borax. That has at least some kinship to saying "hydrogen, a water derivative" - both are true, but don't tell much of the story. [ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]</p>

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11-22-2002, 10:22 AM	#3
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	OK, here's a 'Skepticism' response to this topic. Yeah, it's probably possible and even practical, just all the patents and information are owned by the oil companies and auto manufacturers who'll finally implement them once they realize our oil supply is dwindling to nothing. Me, I'll probably get one of those hybrid cars in a few years, or maybe true electrics will be a little more practical by then. Still a good ol' H2O-powered vehicle would be nice.

11-22-2002, 11:05 AM	#4
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	Very doubtful. Here's why: it takes energy to free hydrogen from oxygen in water. So while, yes, you can use a variety of methods to liberate hydrogen, is it really feasable. I don't know the chemistry, so can't comment on it (it may be right). But there is the issue that you will need a continuous supply of borax. How much is there in the world? I am a bit concerned that borax is described as a catalyst instead of a feedstock. In fact, if you read <a href="http://www.milleniumcell.com/about/index.html" target="_blank">here</a>, you will see that the starting materials is borax. This borax is then modified into sodium borohydride. The sodium borohydride, in the presence of a catalyst, can (supposedly) liberate hydrogen from water, with the waste material being borates (borax again). So you start with borax, and end with borax. This tells me what you are doing is putting energy into the borax to make it sodium borohydride. That, in turn, is used to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen (or hydrogen and H2O2 - but I think this one is far less likely). Each of those two steps will be far less than 100 % effecient. Why is this any better than using compressed hydrogen (or other hydrogen storage techniques) and having gas (not petrol) stations to refill? Run electricity through water and get hydrogen at one electrode, oxygen at the other electrode, preseparated. Does the process described at the web site separate hydrogen from oxygen? If not, you can get a very, very, very big boom. General safety concern: yes, hydrogen gas can burn/explode. What can sodium borohydride do? Perhaps this will be the solution for mobile engines, but I seriously doubt it. Simian

11-22-2002, 02:47 PM	#7
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	All of which assumes major breakthroughs in hydrogen storage. The problem is, hydrogen is the simplest and therefore SMALLEST element in the universe. One proton, one electron. Very small. Small enough, in fact, to seep out of most containers unless they're phenominally dense. (Or use some sort of charged containment system.) Both of these quickly wipe out any efficiency advantage from using hydrogen. There's been some work recently with metal hydride pellets, (taking a pellet of, let's say draino... (sodium hydroxide) for example...) and dropping it in a solution to break it down. (Like an acid.) The acid (let's say HCL) breaks down the pellets and the sodium in the pellet bonds with the chlorine in the acid, leaving salt and H2. These methods are still experimental enough that details about them are very sparse... (covered under NDA, so they don't make it into the press except in the most general terms) so there's no way to tell as yet how effective they'll be. There was also a posting on slashdot a while back about a new potential form of battery... a liquid filled container seeded with a form of e. Coli, which broke down food waste liberating free hydrogen. (Or free hydrogen and methane.) Also highly experimental, but potentially very useful.

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