Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Priapus · 12-19-2002, 09:23 AM

Hey Polar Bear (or anyone else for that matter), what did you think of the JW's take on it? Come on guys, give me some material to use on my parents!

Godless Dave · 12-19-2002, 10:59 AM

Priapus, the JW perspective seems internally consistent to me, which is saying a lot. It's also very similar to J.R.R. Tolkien's quasi-Catholic theological ideas as explored in the Silmarillion.

One way of looking at it is a two-man con. The salvation Jesus offers only makes sense if there's something to be saved from, and Satan and hell provide that.

The reason an independent, evil Satan doesn't mesh with an omnipotent, omniscient God is that Jehovah of the Old Testament was not originally seen as omnipotent or omniscient. There are hints of other supernatural entities that weren't necessarily created by Jehovah. Jehovah is making the case that he is the most powerful of those entities but not that he created all the others. God as omnipotent creator was a later Jewish idea.

More serious scholars will know better than I, but I was under the impression that the serpent, Lucifer, and Satan are three different characters in the Bible, but theologians later decided they were aspects of the same characeter.

Butters · 12-19-2002, 12:48 PM

I love Paine's take on this!

Quote:

The Christian mythologists tell that their Satan made war against the Almighty, who defeated him, and confined him afterwards, not under a mountain, but in a pit. It is here easy to see that the first fable suggested the idea of the second; for the fable of Jupiter and the Giants was told many hundred years before that of Satan.

Thus far the ancient and the Christian mythologists differ very little from each other. But the latter have contrived to carry the matter much farther. They have contrived to connect the fabulous part of the story of Jesus Christ with the fable originating from Mount Etna; and, in order to make all the parts of the story tie together, they have taken to their aid the traditions of the Jews; for the Christian mythology is made up partly from the ancient mythology, and partly from the Jewish traditions.

The Christian mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the garden of Eden in the shape of a snake, or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no ways surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tete-a-tate is, that he persuades her to eat an apple, and the eating of that apple damns all mankind.

After giving Satan this triumph over the whole creation, one would have supposed that the church mythologists would have been kind enough to send him back again to the pit, or, if they had not done this, that they would have put a mountain upon him, (for they say that their faith can remove a mountain) or have put him under a mountain, as the former mythologists had done, to prevent his getting again among the women, and doing more mischief. But instead of this, they leave him at large, without even obliging him to give his parole. The secret of which is, that they could not do without him; and after being at the trouble of making him, they bribed him to stay. They promised him ALL the Jews, ALL the Turks by anticipation, nine-tenths of the world beside, and Mahomet into the bargain. After this, who can doubt the bountifulness of the Christian Mythology?

Having thus made an insurrection and a battle in heaven, in which none of the combatants could be either killed or wounded -- put Satan into the pit -- let him out again -- given him a triumph over the whole creation -- damned all mankind by the eating of an apple, there Christian mythologists bring the two ends of their fable together. They represent this virtuous and amiable man, Jesus Christ, to be at once both God and man, and also the Son of God, celestially begotten, on purpose to be sacrificed, because they say that Eve in her longing had eaten an apple.

Polar Bear · 12-19-2002, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
<strong>More serious scholars will know better than I, but I was under the impression that the serpent, Lucifer, and Satan are three different characters in the Bible, but theologians later decided they were aspects of the same characeter.</strong>

Maybe there is a Satanic Trinity corresponding to the Christian one? Let's see here. Perhaps Satan is the Father and Lucifer the son, which would make sense in terms of Lucifer as light-bringer, the bearer of sinister knowledge, and so forth. As Jesus brought an offer of redemption, Lucifer brings an offer of ascension or rebellion or something.

The snake ... hmmm ... perhaps the Satanic Unholy Spirit possessed a reptile? Perhaps it was this same Unholy Spirit that possessed Judas? Who knows.

Another question: If Satan possessed Judas and forced him to betray Christ, then why was Judas punished? Obviously it wasn't his fault.

Tercel · 12-19-2002, 02:34 PM

My 2c from my liberal Christian pov:

Quote:

1. When God created the angels, did he know that Lucifer (Satan) would rebel? If so, why did he let it happen? Free will?

God when creating the angels (and us) knew that he was giving them free will and that some could potentially use it to rebel. -He didn't know exactly who would though.

Quote:

2. Is Satan the cause of all evil in the world?

No. Humans cause plenty of evil too. Satan is simply the most powerful and evil of all evil beings.

Quote:

3. Do Satan and God work together, or are they implacable enemies? That may seem like a silly question, but it seems like some people think of Satan as doing a job for God: punishing sinners and running Hell. If Satan was truly an enemy of God, why would he help God out by punishing God's enemies?

Satan and God are in opposition. (Or at least Satan attempts to oppose God) I've run into the idea that Satan runs hell before and I've no idea where it originated, but according to all Biblical accounts Satan's going to be in Hell not running it.

Quote:

4. Is Hell a place where Satan and his demons are punished, or is it a realm in which they rule?

Punished/Suffer

Quote:

5. Who made Hell and why?

I'm not sure whether Hell is a place a state of being or what. The Bible mentions at one point that God created Hell for the Devil and his angels (the Devil's that is), but whether it's being metaphorical or allegorical or just plain wrong etc: I don't know.
I'm most inclined to the view that Hell is a state of being/mind where the person is completely filled with hatred etc for everything in such a way that there is no good in them at all and no potential for such. And I suspect that in the final judgement God will annihilate these people.

Quote:

6. If Satan is an eternal adversary, and God is omniscient and omnipotent, wouldn't Satan be aware of the futility of opposition? Why would Satan seek to struggle against an unbeatable foe?

How do you mean "eternal adversary"? Satan is a created being. To answer the question: Perhaps: I don't know how much Satan knows. But in my experience of people on earth, simple futility and inevitableness of the consequences has never stopped people from doing evil. I don't see why Satan should be different.

cloudyphiz · 12-20-2002, 04:45 AM

here's an interesting article on the subject:

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~robwir/devbio.html" target="_blank">the devil's biography</a>

-gary

Drexel · 12-20-2002, 07:38 AM

Isn't "Lucifer" just a mistranslation of Isaiah's verbal jab at Nebuchadnezzar?

CX · 12-20-2002, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drexel:
<strong>Isn't "Lucifer" just a mistranslation of Isaiah's verbal jab at Nebuchadnezzar?</strong>

No. Lucifer is that Latinization of the Hebrew word for "light bearer" it is mentioned precisely once in the OT in Isaiah as you point out.

CX · 12-20-2002, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Polar Bear:
I have a lot of questions about Satan

One thing that is extremely important to remember is that the name Satan actually comes from a word that is used repeatedly in the OT to refer to different characters: stn (my Hebrew transliteration is pretty week, but I think that's close). In ancient Hebrew a satan was an adversary or obstacle. The word literally meant "something thrown across ones path". In early Judaism a satan was an agent of god sent to do something to oppose man. Consider the story of Baalam and the angel in Numbers 22. Baalam decides to ride his ass somewhere YHVH doesn't want him going and YHVH sends an angel to block Baalam's way. The original Hebrew uses the word stn in reference to this angel.

The idea of Satan as a specific figure is a later development. In Chronicles the chronicler attributes David's decision to take a census so that he can impose taxes on the people to Satan as away to reconcile the fact that David is good with what the Chronicler considers and extremely evil act.

Quote:

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

This is the first time Satan is an actual specific character. Of course Satan figures prominently in the story of Job, but in this case Satan is a part of the heavenly court, one of the "Sons of God", and an agent of god not really his opponent.

After Job, Satan is only mentioned about 3 times in the entire rest of the OT, once in Psalm 109 and a couple times in Zechariah.

Bobzammel · 12-20-2002, 10:23 AM

Actually, the PSALM 109 thingy is a mistranslation of accuser. "Satan" is the Hebrew word for Accuser.
The Lucifer reference is mainly a misconception--it has no real scriptual support. Isiah was mainly attacking the king for saying that he was God--a lot of ancient kings stated that they were in fact divine.
As for the serpent, in Genesis it's quite clear that it's simply a *serpent*. Not a angel, not a demon, not a God, but simply a snake. The whole concept of the woman's seed crushing the serpent is mainly an explanation of the problems between man and snake. Satan is not identified with the serpent until Revelation.
In JOB and some other books, Satan is potrayed mainly as one of the Angels, a sort of prosecuting attorney. He makes a slight wager with God regarding Job, but he is not potrayed overall as a bad guy. He seems to have a low view of mankind. He also is not allowed to excercise powers without God's permission.
However, after the Exile, Satan starts to take on the characteristics of 'evil' gods and spirits such as Mara and Ahriman. A duality also emerges, with Satan apparentally being evil and having incredible spiritual power on Earth. In addition he was given followers-demons. Due perhaps to Satan's ability to cause diseases and cause firestorms in JOB, all diseases were stated to come from Satan and his angels, and "fire from heaven" is stated to be one of the 'miracles' performed by the Antichrist. A connection was also drawn with the "sons of god" in Genesis, primarily in the apocryphal work THE BOOK OF ENOCH. In certain Gnostic sects-supported to a degree by some elements of the scriptures-Satan is even potrayed as totally owning the physical universe, and even creating it. Satan in the Gospels is potrayed mainly as trying to lure Jesus off his mission in the synoptics(Perhaps as a test sent by God? The Tempation BTW also is very similar to other stories in other religions), but takes on a more evil nature in the Gospel Of John, the epistles, and Revelation.
Satan has led to many paranoid actions on the part of Christians, unfortunately. Today it is merely limited to a profound fear of technology, Government, science such as Evolution and Astronomy etc.--although in older times it led to all sorts of purgings and executions, such as the Salem Witch trials. Satan is also frequently used by some Christians to attack other Christians--take Jack Chick's site for instance.

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12-19-2002, 09:23 AM	#11
Priapus Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Springfield MO Posts: 25	Hey Polar Bear (or anyone else for that matter), what did you think of the JW's take on it? Come on guys, give me some material to use on my parents!

12-19-2002, 10:59 AM	#12
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Priapus, the JW perspective seems internally consistent to me, which is saying a lot. It's also very similar to J.R.R. Tolkien's quasi-Catholic theological ideas as explored in the Silmarillion. One way of looking at it is a two-man con. The salvation Jesus offers only makes sense if there's something to be saved from, and Satan and hell provide that. The reason an independent, evil Satan doesn't mesh with an omnipotent, omniscient God is that Jehovah of the Old Testament was not originally seen as omnipotent or omniscient. There are hints of other supernatural entities that weren't necessarily created by Jehovah. Jehovah is making the case that he is the most powerful of those entities but not that he created all the others. God as omnipotent creator was a later Jewish idea. More serious scholars will know better than I, but I was under the impression that the serpent, Lucifer, and Satan are three different characters in the Bible, but theologians later decided they were aspects of the same characeter.

12-20-2002, 04:45 AM	#16
cloudyphiz Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: rochester, ny, usa Posts: 658	here's an interesting article on the subject: <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~robwir/devbio.html" target="_blank">the devil's biography</a> -gary

12-20-2002, 07:38 AM	#17
Drexel Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: usa Posts: 14	Isn't "Lucifer" just a mistranslation of Isaiah's verbal jab at Nebuchadnezzar?

12-20-2002, 10:23 AM	#20
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Actually, the PSALM 109 thingy is a mistranslation of accuser. "Satan" is the Hebrew word for Accuser. The Lucifer reference is mainly a misconception--it has no real scriptual support. Isiah was mainly attacking the king for saying that he was God--a lot of ancient kings stated that they were in fact divine. As for the serpent, in Genesis it's quite clear that it's simply a serpent. Not a angel, not a demon, not a God, but simply a snake. The whole concept of the woman's seed crushing the serpent is mainly an explanation of the problems between man and snake. Satan is not identified with the serpent until Revelation. In JOB and some other books, Satan is potrayed mainly as one of the Angels, a sort of prosecuting attorney. He makes a slight wager with God regarding Job, but he is not potrayed overall as a bad guy. He seems to have a low view of mankind. He also is not allowed to excercise powers without God's permission. However, after the Exile, Satan starts to take on the characteristics of 'evil' gods and spirits such as Mara and Ahriman. A duality also emerges, with Satan apparentally being evil and having incredible spiritual power on Earth. In addition he was given followers-demons. Due perhaps to Satan's ability to cause diseases and cause firestorms in JOB, all diseases were stated to come from Satan and his angels, and "fire from heaven" is stated to be one of the 'miracles' performed by the Antichrist. A connection was also drawn with the "sons of god" in Genesis, primarily in the apocryphal work THE BOOK OF ENOCH. In certain Gnostic sects-supported to a degree by some elements of the scriptures-Satan is even potrayed as totally owning the physical universe, and even creating it. Satan in the Gospels is potrayed mainly as trying to lure Jesus off his mission in the synoptics(Perhaps as a test sent by God? The Tempation BTW also is very similar to other stories in other religions), but takes on a more evil nature in the Gospel Of John, the epistles, and Revelation. Satan has led to many paranoid actions on the part of Christians, unfortunately. Today it is merely limited to a profound fear of technology, Government, science such as Evolution and Astronomy etc.--although in older times it led to all sorts of purgings and executions, such as the Salem Witch trials. Satan is also frequently used by some Christians to attack other Christians--take Jack Chick's site for instance.

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