Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Derec · 06-11-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
American culture encourages, and creates the environment for, violence against everyone. Improvement of the world doesn't start with "the other guy".

American culture (and Western cultures in general) are far from perfect. Hwoever there is a worl;d of difference between being not perfect and what is happening in Islamist countries around the world.

UMoC

Fjordaniv · 06-11-2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
American culture encourages, and creates the environment for, violence against everyone. Improvement of the world doesn't start with "the other guy".

All too true. The problem with this argument is that it tends to collapse into extemes. On the one hand, you have the people who are willing to criticize for atrocities in other cultures while overlooking similar behavior in their own.

On the other hand, and this is probably where the charge of "political correctness" comes in, there are a number of people who tend to criticize bigotry in western culture (as well they should) while ignoring or even excusing the same behavior in other cultures, in the ironic goal of fostering "diversity."

There is just no easy solution. Either extreme leaves one open to the well justified charge of hypocrisy, and ironies abound: if you criticize a culture for practicing racism, you may be accused of being a racist for not respecting that culture's traditions.

The flip side is that you may wind up condemning a society for its bigotry while ignoring or perpetuating the same behavior in your own.

The Women's Rights division of Human Rights Watch has a statement that goes to the heart of this issue:

Quote:

Our duty as activists is to expose and denounce as human rights violations those practices and policies that silence and subordinate women. We reject any law, culture, or religion in which women are systematically discriminated against, excluded from political participation and public life, segregated in their daily lives, raped in armed conflict, beaten in their homes, denied equal divorce or inheritance rights, killed for having sex, forced to marry, assaulted for not conforming to gender norms, and sold into forced labor. Arguments that sustain and excuse these human rights abuses - those of cultural norms, "appropriate" rights for women, or western imperialism - barely disguise their true meaning: that women's lives matter less than men's. Cultural relativism, which argues that there are no universal human rights and that rights are culture-specific and culturally determined, is still a formidable and corrosive challenge to women's rights to equality and dignity in all facets of their lives.

The Women's Rights Division of Human Rights Watch fights against the dehumanization and marginalization of women. We promote women's equal rights and human dignity. The realization of women's rights is a global struggle based on universal human rights and the rule of law. It requires all of us to unite in solidarity to end traditions, practices, and laws that harm women. It is a fight for freedom to be fully and completely human and equal without apology or permission. Ultimately, the struggle for women's human rights must be about making women's lives matter everywhere all the time. In practice, this means taking action to stop discrimination and violence against women.

While the concept of "universal" rights is open to debate, this is probably one of the better statements regarding the issue of women's rights. Brutality and opression toward women in ANY culture should be challenged.

Of course, the issue of who defines and what constitutes brutality will remain the key to this debate. In the mean time, religio-cultural practices in many cultures will continue, with very real and tangible consequences.

Fred

Godless Dave · 06-11-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
American culture encourages, and creates the environment for, violence against everyone. Improvement of the world doesn't start with "the other guy".

I agree with your second point but disagree with your first. There are aspects of American culture that encourage violence but for the most part they are not enshrined into law (the exceptions being the death penalty and parts of our foreign policy). There are parts of the US where you can be charged with assault for swearing at someone. And the way the law treats domestic violence has changed drastically for the better over the last 20 years.

In countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, the violence depicted in the photo in the OP is legal.

Misso · 06-11-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

There are aspects of American culture that encourage violence but for the most part they are not enshrined into law (the exceptions being the death penalty and parts of our foreign policy).

And of course gunlaws. Or are those to discourage violence?

Godless Dave · 06-11-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
And of course gunlaws. Or are those to discourage violence?

Hypothetically, yes, in that they provide for self-defense. In practice I think they neither encourage nor discourage violence. The culture of firearms may be behind a lot of violent crime, but I don't think the laws have anything to do with that culture. Canada's gun laws are only slightly more restrictive and they have a far lower rate of violent crime involving firearms than we do.

I'm definitely not arguing that the US is anywhere near perfect. But in the US someone who burned another person over 70% of her body would likely be tried, convicted, and sentenced. That wouldn't happen in Pakistan.

Evangelion · 06-11-2003, 09:18 AM

The point that the OP fails to address, of course, is that this sort of violence is not "religious" as such. It is, in fact, based upon social mores, not religious prohibitions.

India and Pakistan are both infamous for their institional prejudice - particularly against women. We must expect this. They are backward, 3rd World nations with a backward, 3rd World outlook. If Islam wasn't there, they'd still be doing exactly the same thing.

Let's look at the society before we blame the religion.

Sauron · 06-11-2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
Islam is the only religion I am aware of where women are executed for holding hands with or kissing a man that is not their husband.

The fact that this only happens at the hands of extremists.

It is not an everyday occurrence in Islam, no matter how much you try to paint it so.

Moreover, you've yet to show that Islam is the source here, as opposed to the general culture of the people in question. Coincidence is not causality.

Quote:

Islam is the only religion that I am aware of where women cannot feel the sunshine on their hair, or where acid is thrown on them and the clerics overlook it.

Neither of which is correct.

Quote:

Why are you people making excuses for Islam?

Because your attempt to mis-characterize Islam is disgusting.

Godless Dave · 06-11-2003, 10:13 AM

Good point bringing up India. They are not Islamic but in the more traditional areas women are still treated pretty badly.

Treating women (and children, and weaker men) with cruelty has been a part of most cultures throughout the world's history. It is true that many branches of Islam perpetuate it, but extremist Islam certainly isn't the only source of such cruelty.

Jat · 06-11-2003, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
I see nothing wrong with condemning a culture that encourages violence against women or creates an environment where it can flourish. Even if Pakistan's version of Islam doesn't condone violence against women, by denying women civil rights it creates an environment in which men can abuse them and get away with it.

I would also be interested in patterns of domestic violence in China, Japan, Vietnam, and the Phillipines.

Of course you should, but when pointing one's finger remember where the other three are pointed.

Jat · 06-11-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UglyManOnCampus
American culture (and Western cultures in general) are far from perfect. Hwoever there is a worl;d of difference between being not perfect and what is happening in Islamist countries around the world.

UMoC

The difference isn't as great as you may think.

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06-11-2003, 09:18 AM	#26
Evangelion Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Walsall, UK Posts: 1,490	The point that the OP fails to address, of course, is that this sort of violence is not "religious" as such. It is, in fact, based upon social mores, not religious prohibitions. India and Pakistan are both infamous for their institional prejudice - particularly against women. We must expect this. They are backward, 3rd World nations with a backward, 3rd World outlook. If Islam wasn't there, they'd still be doing exactly the same thing. Let's look at the society before we blame the religion.

06-11-2003, 10:13 AM	#28
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Good point bringing up India. They are not Islamic but in the more traditional areas women are still treated pretty badly. Treating women (and children, and weaker men) with cruelty has been a part of most cultures throughout the world's history. It is true that many branches of Islam perpetuate it, but extremist Islam certainly isn't the only source of such cruelty.

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