Bree

[DISCLAIMER: I know this seems like a strange request, coming from an atheist, but this is a serious question posed in earnest because I'm struggling with something at the moment. I'd really appreciate if any smug comments (theist or non-theist) could be directed to me in PM, instead of in this thread. Thanks - BJM]

I would like an opinion on Romans 14:21:

Quote:

[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [KJV]

How do you, as a Christian, feel about this verse as applied to an atheist?

I am currently in a situation where I could, through what I hope is no fault of my own, cause a brother in Christ to stray from the core of his deeply held faith. I try to be tolerant and understanding of everyone's belief system, in the same way I would expect others to try and be tolerant and understanding of my own non-belief - and this is why I am struggling with the above verse. I have no desire to force him to do anything which would cause him grief, however, I have resolved not to feel guilty if he feels this way simply because it is his own choice.

How would you interpret this verse, as applicable to everyday life, and do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks so much for your consideration. This is something which has been weighing heavily on my mind for some time.

keyser_soze

I have led, thus far 8 people from faith to rational thought. They ALL thanked me for it after the fact. Are you sure he wouldn't? Never take someone from the faith that doesn't have the strength to live by their own will, and never take someone who has no moral compass of their own, but requires an external one. Everyone else is fair game. Were you ever religious? I was, for a time(most of my young life I guess), so I know what it's like to have the cloud lifted and the vision cleared. I think you would be doing him a favor.

If you want really good counsel, for the theist side, I can give you the email of a catholic priest who is probably one of the kinder religious people out there, and he converts a lot of people, not argument, but by living well, and being sincere in the love of his faith.

Bree

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have been less vague.

This isn't just about deconverting him. There are other ways you can lead someone astray from their faith, without a deconversion experience.

keyser_soze

Then you need to be very specific. Just do the kind thing, but think of that person's future and self. You already know what you should do, you don't need us to second guess what I have seen to be a good mind's decision. Just do as you would do, and it will be correct. You haven't let anyone down so far.

HelenM

Hi Bree,

It's hard to know what to say with so little information about the situation - although, if you are being discrete I respect that.

I think the basic message of this text is "Don't just think of yourself; think of the effect your actions will have on those around you".

For example, a Christian who believes it's fine to drink alcohol nevertheless would be rather selfish and unkind to urge an ex-alcoholic to go to a bar with him/her, just because the Christian wants to go.

On the other hand, I think all Christians would say that we can't please everyone all the time and this verse is not saying that we should let our lives be completely ruled by the weaknesses or sensibilities of others.

So, there's a balance to be sought.

In your case I would suggest being honest with this other person, if you think you could lead him into losing his faith. Tell him that you're concerned about that and then if he decides to continue down whatever path it is that you feel you've encouraged him down, you can at least know you did all you could to warn him.

This has never happened to me but I suppose it might be like an atheist insisting on coming to church with me. If they get converted then - they chose to go. I don't see that I should stop going just to stop them going and risking losing their atheism.

(Please don't anyone take this thread off-topic by pointing out that that would never happen so it's a silly example - it's just an example )

Anyway Bree, I guess I'm wondering, what is the connection between whatever you're doing and this person possibly losing their faith? Why do you feel that you would be responsible if they did lose it?

If you can't say any more on here you're welcome to PM me.

I hope there was something helpful in there somewhere

Helen

edited to add: maybe your situation is more like one where a Christian who thinks it's ok to drink takes a Christian who doesn't, to a bar, and encourages them to drink.

I think - as I maybe already said - you need to make sure he is making the choices. And tell him about your concerns. So he's as informed as possible. If he doesn't listen, that's not really your fault, imo.

wildernesse

Bree,

I think that the verse you quoted refers to respect for people who believe differently than you--not to taunt them or to tempt them to do something that you find inconsequential but that they feel is wrong. An example might be not drinking around someone who thinks that alcohol consumption is a sin or not offering alcohol to a non-drinker. An atheist might not make disparaging "Sky-Daddy" comments around a believer, and a believer shouldn't ask an atheist to pray.

I also don't know that you can "make" someone stray from his faith--you can open doors, but the other person walks through those doors of their own decision. I doubt you can push anyone either directly or indirectly through a door towards or away from faith. I think that having respectful conversations, or even debates, that might lead to someone losing or gaining their faith are fine--as long as those conversations are entered in mutually, in other words non-harrassing communication.

As long as you are considerate and respectful of the other person, I think that conversations/actions are fine. You are not responsible for other adults' decisions, although you can be empathetic to the consequences of those decisions.

--tibac

Bree

The person I'm describing is an individual I work very closely with. Over the past few months he's gone through a few, er, changes which he attributes to me: (a) he's starting to question his faith and (b) he views me as more than a friend - he is married and eyes me with interest. He sees the two things as working together: losing his faith (and his moral values?!) and falling "in lust" with me.

I should have put this all in the OP, but I was kind of nervous about doing so . I feel kind of funny, looking to the Bible for advice (being an atheist and all) but I'm trying very hard to understand where this guy is coming from spiritually and trying even harder to act accordingly.

HelenM

Bree,

Have you told him you're 'not interested'? Plus, if you think it's wrong of him to contemplate cheating on his wife, and you feel brave enough to tell him, you can add that too.

I think the best thing you can encourage him to do is deal with his marriage problems in a honest way. Presumably he is having some if he's hoping for more than a friendship from you.

You could also point out to him that being an atheist doesn't mean it's ok to cheat on one's spouse.

Maybe you could tell him you don't think it's advisable for him to have the personal talks he's having with you. You could draw some boundaries and say "I'm happy to be a friend but let's stick to such-and-such topics". If there are situations where you've been alone with him then maybe you can tell him you're not going to do that any more.

I think for your sake it's important to be clear about the relationship between him and you - what it is and what it isn't.

Helen

brighid

Although I am not a theist … I would tell him that shedding his faith in the Christian God SHOULD NOT give him the idea that he can do whatever it is he wishes without consequence and that atheism is merely a lack of belief in God(s), not a system of morality. An atheist (as you know) derives their morality from various sources. There ARE consequences to infidelity, real life consequences that have nothing to do with God(s). The emotional harm that comes to all parties involved, especially any children caught in the middle of marital strife is but one consequence to consider, not to mention the destruction this will have on his character. I would tell him that although you do not believe a God is watching, waiting to either punish or reward you for behavior that your HUMAN and personal moral code dictates that infidelity is immoral and that you cannot be a part of it (even if you were single and heterosexual.)

Brighid

Godless Dave

(b) was certianly not "caused by" you. Men find women attractive and look on them with lust all the time. I probably do it five or six times a day. If he weren't so steeped in fundy BS he would know that and realize it's not a big deal. He has probably been convinced that a real Christian would never even be tempted to cheat on his wife, so since he's tempted he must be losing faith. The fact is everyone gets tempted, whether or not they are infused with the spirit. The morality comes in not giving in to temptation. He is just going to have to deal with that. But make sure he knows he has no chance with you.