Corso

Stretch.
If that’s the case, then how can we differentiate between products of divine intervention and products of chance? Isn’t everything supposed to be part a God’s grand master plan?

stretch

Hi Corso,

For the most part, they are probably observationally equivalent. Personally, I doubt that there are a lot of cases of divine intervention in the natural environment. I think that there is a lot of randomness in the world. I might be right, I might be wrong .....

Phanes

I'm not sure "random" really makes sense in reference to God. It seems to imply that the events cannot be known or predicted. But this is God we're talking about; there's nothing he doesn't know or can't predict (or so I hear).

I think what Corso means is something like "If God knew that creating the universe in some way [ours] would result all manner of horrible disasters and diseases (mental and physical), why didn't he decide to make it some other way (that wouldn't have horrible disasters and diseases)?"

I've never heard a convincing answer to this question either.

stretch

Hi Phanes,

In some sense, randomness depends on perspective. For example, as a statistician, I work with data every day that is not particularly random from the perspective of those who actually generated the data, but is random from my perspective.

Whether or not God perceives things as random, is different from whether or not I do. I am constrained by limited information and seeing things within limits of 'time'. When I talk about the difference between divine intervention and randomness, I guess it's akin to talking about whether or not God decides where each individual flake of snow is going to land and 'puts' it there or whether God simple gave a push-start to energy/matter and let it move ahead from there.

If Corso is asking is this the 'best of all possible worlds'? Well, I dunno. It's the one we have to deal with. If this is the sort of world that led to the existence of you and I and billions of others, in some sense I'm happy about it. The fact that most of us have to suffer, and some have to suffer horribly ain't something that I can really claim to understand.

braces_for_impact

Omniscience doesn't seem to me to be compatible with this 'randomness' argument. If god were omniscient, then it is not random. He created the forces necessary to cause this randomness. I can point a gun at you with one bullet in the chamber, spin it, and pull the trigger. If that bullet happens to be in the right spot, and the gun discharges and kills you, was it I or randomness that ended your life? Obviously since I sent these random chances into motion that ultimately ended your existence, I would have to take responsiblity.

stretch

To the extent that things aren't predictable to the casual observer, I would consider them to be random. (There are big debates in statistics/probability about what is and isn't random. A Bayesian would consider some things as being random which a 'classical' statistician wouldn't.)


Regardless of whether or not you want to call it 'random', you are right that, if an omnipotent, omniscient God exists, He is the one responsible for earthquakes, forest fires, aids, etc, and whatever 'seems' to be random to our eyes.

Ronin

Which brings us back to the original question ~ "Would someone please explain to me why God decided to create AIDS, cancer, tumors, mental retardation, earthquakes, tornadoes, parsites, etc. ? "

The answer ~ There are no God(s)ess(es)...these are just natural events moving about a perpetual universe unmotivated by the existence of humankind or nematoads.

stretch

Thread drift?

From the perspective of an atheist, what does it matter what the answer is.
From that perspective, God is just a fictional character. What motivates fictional characters? Nothing. Their actions are 'controlled' by the creator of the fiction. They don't have any ability to make decisions.

From the perspective of an agnostic, it seems on the surface to be a reasonable question to ask. God(s)ess(es) may or may not exist. Given existence, the actions of God(s)ess(es) may or may not have 'reasons' behind them. But, if we are unable to know anything regarding his/her/their existence, no answer regarding motives can be satisfactory. How can we ascribe motives to something or somebody of which/whom we have no concrete knowledge.

For the perspective of a believer, who thinks that he or she has come to some limited knowledge of who/what God might be, the question makes sense, and there is some point of reference within which to try understand the answer. But that answer is (1) likely never to be satisfactory to the believer if the God in which he or she believes is supposed to be infinite ... a finite mind has no hope of fully understanding an infinite being; and (2) is going to be even less satisfying to somebody who doesn't believe ...

Anyway, this is not going to be a satisfactory answer. If God exists, God knows the answer, but has never explained it to me in terms that I can understand. But, to the extent that change is a fundamental characteristic of the universe and is what has driven it to a point where humans exist, it is worthwhile from a purely 'selfish' human perspective. We exist because genes mutate. (And people die painful, horrible deaths because of changes within their bodies ... I've seen it happen to friends and loved ones). We exist and are conscious of our existence because the conditions in the universe and on earth have changed. Events such as ice ages, earthquakes, forest fires, etc. have made changes to the environment that kill off some things and let others flourish. We exist because other living beings have suffered. As we continue to exist, we destroy other living beings ... we have to eat, etc. Why doesn't a God who claims that all of creation is good, put a stop to all of this ... I dunno. Although from time to time I think I have a glimpse of what the reason might be, I don't have a satisfactory answer that I understand. And that sure ain't gonna be a satisfactory answer to somebody who doesn't believe in God's existence.

Well, that's probably it for me on this forum for the next few days. Work beckons

Mad Kally

God? There are no gods. Fictional creatures do not factually exist.

Kally the wannabe Koy

winstonjen

Well, in that case, he must really hate the Pope and all those priests since nothing bad happens to them and they can get away with child molestation and all those other things.