Vinnie

A long article on prayer broken up into 5 pieces for user-friendliness:

Section One is an introduction to prayer: definition, discussion of posture, repetitive prayer etc.

Section Two takes a deeper look at the Lord's Prayer line by line.

Section Three lays out theological difficulties with intercessory prayer. I find the interventionist God of supernatural theism to be very problematic.

Section Four takes a critical look at prayer studies and their worth.

Section Five discusses a final topic of intercessory prayer and concludes positively with some statements on the efficacy of prayer as a whole.

Vinnie

HelenM

Hi Vinnie,

I had a quick look at what you wrote...

Quoting from Section III:

So, in your opinion, why doesn't God intervene to answer prayers?

a) God can't
b) God won't
c) God is not a Person as such
d) other (please elaborate)

Helen

Vinnie

Sorry its taken a while to respond. I am definately leaning towards a but I have some reservations with that idea. Mainly that it rules out any instance of miracles like say, a bodily resurrection of an individual. But it seems so much easier to embrace. It makes more sense. I am actually discussing that here right now.

Start with about the 20th post down which reads: "That is definately a question that plagues me. If God cna stop them, why allow a hurricane or famine or whatever to hurt so many people?"

I can't give you a definitive answer at this time. Maybe soon.

Vinnie

HelenM

Thanks for the response

So...if God can't then why can't He?

Your new forums look great, Vinnie. I did go there to look already, but I'm hesitating to join because that might incite me into spending even more time online

What happened to 'ilgwamh', anyway? Do you no longer believe in the kind of God you can love with all your heart?

take care
Helen

Vinnie

No, I believe in that same God. My understanding on everything has changed completely though. But not my love for God. Of course, I don't think God is very concerned with the "technical facts" or "doctrinal stances" we take. Well, less so than everyone seems to think. People aren't going to go to hell because they did not believe problematic statements to be true.

I'm thinking it deals with creating a free world. In the beginning God had all the power (omnipotence) but in creating free beings and a "free world" he had to surrender or delegate some of his power to us. Without true power of our own we could never have libertarian free will.

Its not that God can't because of some "external force" but he can't because he chose to create a free world and this includes surrendering a degree of power.

Part of the reason I believe God can't is because empirically, it seems he doesn't. Numerous wars which resulted in the deaths of millions of people. The holocaust, numerous natural disasters ( two in Bangledash in this century total over 600,000 combined).

I am finding the interventionist God of supernatural theism to be very problematic. This does not mean I am moving to deism. Panentheism rather. Not pantheism, panenetheism

So how are things going?

Vinnie

HelenM

That's right - it's not because of that, it's because of 'original sin'!

(Vinnie, I'm just being provocative - I saw on your forums that you reject that doctrine)

Ok - it would be like if when I play chess with my son I played without a queen to give him more chance to win. (Unfortunately for him I don't )

I do commend you for considering the 'evidence'. Often, Christians aren't too good at that...

I understand the problem and I'm not about to try to explain it at this particular time

I discovered panentheism after I went to the course on Jesus by the UU minister (which was largely based on the Jesus Seminar writings) and then found out he was a panentheist. I forgot what it means already . But don't bother explaining...I'll go look it up again...

Fine! You?

take care
Helen

Bill Snedden

Yeah, you and a lot of other people!

In your "Final Thoughts" section, you list a number of what you call "positive aspects" of prayer:

Can't these also be seen to apply to just general compassion for others and meditation (esp. of the Buddhist sort, where one meditates in an effort to develop a compassionate nature)?

BTW, have you read any of Paul Tillich's work? I suspect you have, but I'd be curious as to how much it might have influenced your views. Especially in terms of prayer and your articles linked here...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

P.S. I wanted to add: Vinnie, I am very impressed with your article and website in general. Nice work!

Vinnie

Yeah, so it seems. After looking at the prayer studies I have trouble believing that "serious" apologists can actually promote those things??

I haven't read any Tillich but the sources I have read always seem to refer to him so he is definately on my reading list. I've come to a lot of these views through my own independent studying on the issue of evil. It was nice to see Marcus Borg articulate these same sentiments in "The God We never Knew".

Do you know of the title of a specific book where Tillich addresses this stuff? I could probably find it in noted in some books I have so if you don't know off-hand don't bother looking. I just bought 5 new books Sunday (by Meier, Kummel, Koester, Helms and the Jerome Commentary). I was trying to remember books I wanted and I completely forgot about Tillich

Vinnie

Vinnie

Thank you

Vinnie

Yeah

"Reject" isn't strong enough. Ran over it with a steam roller corresponds a little better

I think it would be similar to that in some respects but that analogy would fail at a point. That is obvious though

You know the answer but your not going to tell me?

Muy bien!

Vinine