Not Prince Hamlet

And what about ethnic jews who are atheists, such as myself? I do not belief in a "spiritual destiny", do not observe Jewish rituals, yet surely I would have been rounded up with the others, too.

And believe me, Israel is not a state in my mind. (Though Idaho is, oddly enough.)

Face it, his statements were unsupportable. Proof positive in the fallability of the Pope; certainly, at least that one.

Jeff

Amos

Certainly not because that would make it impossible. I don't think that that is what the Treaty of Luxemburg had in mind either.

My comment had nothing to do with the war but just in its own. It is based on a the traditional difference between Judiasm as a religion without a nation and Catholicism as a religion that is both above and below the state but never part of the state (nation) for the same reason.

Amos

My statement has nothing to do with the rounding up of any Jews and Israel is a state of mind.

What does Idaho mean?

bonduca

What on earth has this to do with Eugenio Pacelli, Pius XII, and his signing of the Reich Concordat, or his comments regarding the Jews?

Amos, please explain to me how this justifies the Vatican's implicit lack of resistance toward Nazi extermination of the Jews in return for concessions made in the negotation of the Reich Concordat, as well as policy forbidding Catholic organizations or clergy to mount such resistance (unless doing so as individuals without sanction and support from said church). Please explain how the Church could essentially sell out the Jewish people to the Nazi party in return for concessions given to them by murderers. I do not wish to discuss the nature of the Jewish religion, since non-religious Jews were marked for enslavement and death as well as religious ones.

Not Prince Hamlet

No, Israel is not a state of mind. It is a country, and I've been there.

And your statement was in defense of a Pope who said that that the Jews could take care of themselves while the Church made a deal with Hitler saying that they wouldn't interfere in his activities.

Evade and dodge all you want, these are statements of historic record.

Jeff

bonduca

Vatican historic record, to be precise. Much of Mr. Cornwell's research was drawn from Vatican archives.

Amos

It doesn't have to explain anything because it has nothing to do with it. The statement is valid on its own with regard to the nature of Jewish religion.

My point was that misinterpretation leads to wrond ends and that is why I tied it together with the Jewish law being the sole cause that led to the crucifixion of Jesus. They are compliments.

Amos

Israel is a state of mind just like the "New Jerusalem" is a state of mind and you may have been there too.

Not Prince Hamlet

Amos,

You said:


Wait!

Are you actually suggesting that the Church worked with the Nazis for the Jews' own good?



Dude. Think about it. I'm not going to beat up on you, but think about what you're saying.

You sound like a nice guy, but you're saying some monstrous things. My guess is that you're trying so hard to justify the actions of the church that you're not thinking about the implications. Take a little time, think over what you're saying here.

I know you want to believe in the infallibility of the pope, but do you really want to say that the Catholic Church was right to sign the death warrant of millions of Jews, and that it was for their own good?

If I were you, I'd investigate other avenues of logical defense. For instance, the possibility that maybe this particular pope was someone elected improperly and therefore did not speak as the voice of God. Then you could argue that only those correctly appointed popes are infallible, but once in a while a pope is improperly appointed and bad things happen. This is a much more viable defense than maintaining that the holocaust was good for Jews. (In much the same way that slaveowners insisted that slavery was good for their African slaves.)

Jeff

bonduca

Amos, dear, you are not making any sense at all.

Please try to stick to Pius XII and his alleged cooperation with the Nazi party.

Please try to stay focused on Europe during this period in history, and do not drag in Canadians.

Please do not wander off to the crucifixion (or else I will have to remind you that the Roman political machine's practice of crucifixion was the actual means of destruction of the legendary Jesus figure).

Please, please, try to stay on topic.