Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Naked Mage · 02-28-2003, 07:55 AM

CHRISTIAN: Look at that tree. Isn't it pretty?

Therefore, God exists.

stormy313 · 02-28-2003, 05:28 PM

Trees look more like chaos to me.

Cracks in ice or in a rock formation, the branching of blood vessels, etc. It looks like it could be a raw accidental thing that just happens.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Radorth · 02-28-2003, 07:29 PM

Quote:

From this it seems like Radorth thinks that god revealing himself would not make choosing God inevitable, thus free will is maintained. The question then becomes, I suppose, why doesn't he, if it doesn't eliminate free will?

I agree to a point. Here are the problems with it.

1. It misses the point of God's plan which is to have willing servants, not merely faith that he exists.

2. How is he supposed to take form so that we can see him, yet be omnipresent? I would hardly demand he do both, but I think some would whine that he was talking to BBT when he should have been on tornado watch in Kansas or some such nonsense. Again it doesn't do him any good if people are going to whine anyway.

3. Yes, free will could go on if he revealed himself, but so what? Free will is not an end, or a goal, but a temporal allotment. Now if he revealed hmself, and people gave up their sins, then appearing could have some value I suppose. But IMO the world will never be what he intended until we either voluntarily agree to do what he says, or he removes freewill altogether, and forces us to do so.

Therefore I see no point at all to his appearing to us. Some would have more "faith" he exists, yes, but would it make them obey him? And if it made some believe or obey just out of fear, that could have the reverse effect of what he seeks.

Very doubtful. The faith he wants comes when we have tried everything else and are ready to put our faith in him alone. It is a matter of the heart, not the mind.

Rad

Bumble Bee Tuna · 02-28-2003, 07:54 PM

1. How would God proving his existence to people get in the way of having willing servants? I would think it would tap into a huge audience of people who would be perfectly willing to serve if they knew he actually existed. After all, what about all the people who haven't been exposed to Christianity? They would definitely benefit from knowing he existed. I'm sure people who are willing to serve Allah would be willing to serve Yahweh if they were educated as to yahweh's existence over Allah's.

2. Omnipresent to me means he could present "forms" of himself anywhere and STILL BE EVERYWHERE. He doesn't need to take his spiritual essence or whatever it is he has and plop it down in front of someone. He just needs to show proof of his existence- he doesn't even need to appear in some sort of human form or something. Just proof of his existence. Being omnipotent, it would not take up any of his focus so he would not have to sacrifice preventing tornadoes or whatever important business he might have. And why would SOME people whining be good reason not to appear to ALL people?

3. How would probving his existence prevent people from voluntarily agreeing to do what he says? It would just expand the pool of possible people who might do so.

The point is that more people would believe in him, and thus more people would have the chance to believe and obey out of faith and love instead of fear, even if not everyone he appeared to would.

-B

Jayjay · 02-28-2003, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
If God revealed himself to everyone, so we could actually know he existed, would people be convinced to follow him or not?

Look at how many people believe in God just based on superstition... billions. If we cull out the lukewarm believers, and heretics, I think the number is still hundreds of millions of people, based on zero evidence. Even little confirming evidence would quickly make the One True Religion dominant belief system of the planet.

Philosoft · 02-28-2003, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I agree to a point. Here are the problems with it.

1. It misses the point of God's plan which is to have willing servants, not merely faith that he exists.

One might think that God's reducing or eliminating the doubt about his existence would increase the number of "willing slaves."

Quote:

2. How is he supposed to take form so that we can see him, yet be omnipresent? I would hardly demand he do both, but I think some would whine that he was talking to BBT when he should have been on tornado watch in Kansas or some such nonsense. Again it doesn't do him any good if people are going to whine anyway.

Um, are you kidding? Your entire belief system is predicated on the idea that God once did this very thing. Does the name "Jesus" mean anything to you?

Quote:

3. Yes, free will could go on if he revealed himself, but so what? Free will is not an end, or a goal, but a temporal allotment. Now if he revealed hmself, and people gave up their sins, then appearing could have some value I suppose. But IMO the world will never be what he intended until we either voluntarily agree to do what he says, or he removes freewill altogether, and forces us to do so.

Therefore I see no point at all to his appearing to us. Some would have more "faith" he exists, yes, but would it make them obey him? And if it made some believe or obey just out of fear, that could have the reverse effect of what he seeks.

This is a terrible argument. If God is the ultra-benevolent fellow you say he is, he could easily reveal himself in such a way that his overwhelming goodness is revealed thereby. There is zero reason to think that God's revealing himself thusly would do anything but increase the number of "willing servants."

Quote:

Very doubtful. The faith he wants comes when we have tried everything else and are ready to put our faith in him alone. It is a matter of the heart, not the mind.

This is getting ridiculous. Why don't you tell us now all the qualifications God puts on acceptable faith so we can get beyond this heart/mind dichotomy, whatever it means.

-RRH- · 02-28-2003, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Now I think that Jesus spoke on behalf of all humans, when he said "I and my father are one"

To make this stick without losing your freewill, it must means that you too are one with your God, and that God allows you to freely choose if what Jesus said was true.

So, if God and I are one, does that mean God doesn't believe in Himself, so that He can have free will?

Brahma's atheist · 03-01-2003, 03:08 AM

I think it would be great if "god" appeared. You could spend time counting his arms or seeing if you can spot the items it's carrying in each. Or you could see if you could pat his jackal head 'Good doggy' then play 'Walk Like An Egyption' to it. Or maybe someone would try to shoot it and put it on the wall as an animal trophy.
And so on.

jayh · 03-01-2003, 06:11 AM

Quote:

So WHY should God appear and reveal Himself since such action will be useless after a generation or two?

Why on earth should God reveal himself to ONE generation? People die and new ones are born, God is supposed to be so concerned with everyone, and he can't be bothered to re-introduce himself?

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God probably won't appear to them since He did with you (due to time constraint or maybe lack of proper timing),

Wait, this is the God that worries about what you do every second, if you happen to mate with the 'wrong' person, or if you happen to have 'impure' thoughts, that 'watches every sparrow'--- this SAME God can't bother to say hi?

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Therefore I see no point at all to his appearing to us. Some would have more "faith" he exists, yes, but would it make them obey him?

Well it would sure be a lot easier to obey someone who actually appears to exist and who, by bothering interacti with people, shows a serious concern for our feelings.

Quote:

And if it made some believe or obey just out of fear, that could have the reverse effect of what he seeks.

Interesting statement there, it implies that if we got to know God our immediate reason for obeying would be fear. I would think the immediate reason for obeying would be that we find it easier to obey someone who is real to us, who actively demonstrates interest in us.

Ahhh but you fundies are so hung up on fear as motivation.

The big problem with the current system is that there are literally thousands of versions of 'what God wants' (I like the Roger Waters version myself

) and God doesn't seem interested enough to straighten this mess out.

Darth Dane · 03-01-2003, 06:28 AM

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Darth Dane
Now I think that Jesus spoke on behalf of all humans, when he said "I and my father are one"

To make this stick without losing your freewill, it must means that you too are one with your God, and that God allows you to freely choose if what Jesus said was true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if God and I are one, does that mean God doesn't believe in Himself, so that He can have free will?

God is in and of God self, beyond destiny and freewill. Humans can express as best we can, what this Godhead is. And we try our best in the world as we see many do it. God is like this, No God is like that and so on. But since "humans" are the ones who say what God is, that maeks us rather "powerfull"

[quote]:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Darth Dane
Unless everything you look at IS what God is, and the way that God reveals himself to you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

In that case, God has not revealed himself to me in a way that I recognize as him revealing himself to me.

One can rephrase the question: "If God revealed himself to me in a way that I recognize..."

Which in some respect is all semantics. Practically speaking, if God has not revealed himself to me in a way that I can recognize, he has not revealed himself to me at all.

This, of course, leads to the other great theistic accusation along these lines: Non-believers will never recognize God revealing himself to them, because they refuse to do so. This, however, denies God's omnipotence, as well as assuming a strawman definition of atheist beliefs.

You are right, if you have a certain expectation as to how God should reveal himself to you, and that that way hasn't happened yet, yes of course God hasn't revealed himself to you. You are expecting God to come in a way that YOU say is the way. What can God t�hen do, if you are to retain your freewill?

I can't see how that denies God's omnipotence. If God was truly omnipotent, he would grant everyone EXACTLY what they want. "seek and you shall find" "ask and you shall be given" "God" already said this to you, according to the bible.
Another thing is, those who have meditated and so on, have discovered that when you reach enlightenment, you discover that "God/void/absolute" was already there. Someone said that Nirvana and samasara is teh same thing. Jesus said "The kingdom of heaven is spread upon earth, and people do not see it."

True if you don't want to see the kingdom, you won't. God will not force upon you, what you did not ask.

DD - Love Spliff

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02-28-2003, 07:55 AM	#11
The Naked Mage Veteran Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Execution State, USA Posts: 5,031	CHRISTIAN: Look at that tree. Isn't it pretty? Therefore, God exists.

02-28-2003, 05:28 PM	#12
stormy313 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 5	Trees look more like chaos to me. Cracks in ice or in a rock formation, the branching of blood vessels, etc. It looks like it could be a raw accidental thing that just happens. Of course, I could be wrong.

02-28-2003, 07:54 PM	#14
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	1. How would God proving his existence to people get in the way of having willing servants? I would think it would tap into a huge audience of people who would be perfectly willing to serve if they knew he actually existed. After all, what about all the people who haven't been exposed to Christianity? They would definitely benefit from knowing he existed. I'm sure people who are willing to serve Allah would be willing to serve Yahweh if they were educated as to yahweh's existence over Allah's. 2. Omnipresent to me means he could present "forms" of himself anywhere and STILL BE EVERYWHERE. He doesn't need to take his spiritual essence or whatever it is he has and plop it down in front of someone. He just needs to show proof of his existence- he doesn't even need to appear in some sort of human form or something. Just proof of his existence. Being omnipotent, it would not take up any of his focus so he would not have to sacrifice preventing tornadoes or whatever important business he might have. And why would SOME people whining be good reason not to appear to ALL people? 3. How would probving his existence prevent people from voluntarily agreeing to do what he says? It would just expand the pool of possible people who might do so. The point is that more people would believe in him, and thus more people would have the chance to believe and obey out of faith and love instead of fear, even if not everyone he appeared to would. -B

03-01-2003, 03:08 AM	#18
Brahma's atheist Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: (not so) United Kingdom Posts: 514	I think it would be great if "god" appeared. You could spend time counting his arms or seeing if you can spot the items it's carrying in each. Or you could see if you could pat his jackal head 'Good doggy' then play 'Walk Like An Egyption' to it. Or maybe someone would try to shoot it and put it on the wall as an animal trophy. And so on.

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