Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arrowman · 11-27-2002, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave:
Wouldn't the beavers and rats chew through the hull of the ship?

Not if they're hibernating, you wally.

Aren't you following the chain of logic here?

Arrowman · 11-27-2002, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coragyps:
I once calculated 17 cm = 6.7 inches each minute of the whole 40 days to get Everest covered by 15 cubits. Of course, that doesn't take Hydroplate Theory into account.

Yes - I'm not aware of the detailed physics but my understanding is that that kind of volume of water, falling that rapidly, would boil. And the ark would have been full of poached critters.

Albion · 11-27-2002, 08:45 PM

Quote:

How long would it have taken Noah and his family to accomplish a much larger task? (After all, who felled the trees and wrought them into timbers?)

I'm told by a creationist that it could have taken 100 years or so; after all, people lived longer then.

Doubting Didymus · 11-27-2002, 08:46 PM

Quote:

And the ark would have been full of poached critters.

Not if the water came from those nice, cool 'fountains of the deep'.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Doubting Didymus ]

crocodile deathroll · 11-27-2002, 10:26 PM

Ask a creationist how do the wombats find their way back from Mt Ararat to Australia, did they dig their way?

I am sure they had <a href="http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engheavier.html" target="_blank"> big boats </a> with lengths up to 130 m, the widths to 18 m back in the days on antiquity but all those oresman and soldiers would of been crowded enough to cope with without bringing in all those species of termites, giraffes elephants and extra gazelles to feed the lions etc etc etc etc etc......

that is where the Noah's Ark story is completely ludicrous.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

Sandslice · 11-28-2002, 12:18 AM

Could a ship the size of the ark exist...

1) How many animals would you need to take on the ark, such that the current variety may exist exclusive of the theory of evolution?
2) How many animals have gone extinct in the past 4400 years? Those MUST be included.
3) Do we account for "legendary" and "mythical" animals such as Unicorns, Chimerae and Phoenixes? After all, legends and myths often have a basis in reality

4) Do we account for dinosaurs, like those Tyrannosaurs that clear-cut all the gopher trees to build the ark, or the "Brontosaurus" needed to lift wood to the upper levels?

5) What would be a reasonable estimation (per "kind") of the per-capita food need, given that need to last about a year? There isn't gonna be much hibernatin' goin' on with all that sloshin' floodwater.

Notes on 3 and 4:
We all know YEC tactics, and yes, I will pin Hovind's ass-ertations on the rest of YECdom. In other words, here there BE dragons, archosaurs, and mythical beasts. And I am fully aware, as I have been from the beginnings of my knowledge of dinosaurs, that Brontosaurus doesn't exist. The proper name for it is Apatosaurus.

Even without them, however, this is good. <a href="http://www.ucg.org/articles/clean/animals.html" target="_blank">Clean Animals Page</a> lists a respectable number of animals regarded with biblical lists as clean or unclean.

-Clean Animals: It's unfortunate for Ark apologists that except for Sheep and Goats, the list of Clean mammals is comprised of deer-like animals, bovines, and giraffes. And what are these animals, if not rather large? (Don't gimme any spiel about Zookeeper Haon using young animals, either. The extra attention would be a logistical impossibility.)

-Other animals, which are unclean:
--Elephants
--Behemoth... err... hippos.
--Unicorns... err... rhinos.
--Bears
--Lions

That should be enough to push the food requirement to impractical. If not, just throw on a few genera from Order Saurischia.

(To counter any possible YEC argument about taking reptiles as eggs, you can't be assured of getting exactly two mated pairs from four random eggs. Therefore you need to take 'em alive!)

As to the food itself, the problem becomes apparent, not only of eight non-zoologists attempting to pack enough food for all these critters, but also of storing the food AND the critters under the greenhouse conditions a pure WaterWorld would generate... without it spoiling, and without the wonders of refrigeration and central air. Ever seen Chilly Willy?

Bloop · 11-28-2002, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:


Much longer. Remember, the wood for the big Ships-of-the-line was seasoned for years. In the case of the Victory the wood had been seasoned 14 years.

Stats (vary by source): The Victory required 2,500 prime oaks -- 60 acres of forest -- more than a century old, and was 226 feet long from figurehead to sternpost and had a beam of 51 feet, displacing 3,500 tons. Crew and officers, horribly cramped, came to 850.

Vorkosigan

If i remember correctly someone decided in the 18th (i think) century here in Sweden that the Crown needed a bigger fleet of warships. So began by planting a large number of oaks here and there.

Should be about ready now...

Duvenoy · 11-28-2002, 03:36 AM

Quote:

In a mere 40 days, we supposedly had a Deluge: sufficient water falling out of the skies to drown every terrestrial feature on the planet. That's a big storm.

A storm indeed! I read -- forgotten where, sorry -- that for a sufficent amount of water to cover the earth in the amount of time alloted, that water would have to have come down (or up, whatever) at something like ELEVEN FEET AN HOUR!!

Can you imagine what such a circumstance would have on the world's weather patterns?

Yow!

doov

One of the last sane · 11-28-2002, 04:02 AM

What is a gopher tree anyway?

Sandslice · 11-28-2002, 04:07 AM

Pro'ly a cypress tree, made of "gopher wood." Remember, we gotta go by a literary (err... literal) interpretation of the bible.

"Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch"

Oak wood comes from oak trees, so gopher wood must come from gopher trees!

11-27-2002, 10:26 PM	#55
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	Ask a creationist how do the wombats find their way back from Mt Ararat to Australia, did they dig their way? I am sure they had <a href="http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engheavier.html" target="_blank"> big boats </a> with lengths up to 130 m, the widths to 18 m back in the days on antiquity but all those oresman and soldiers would of been crowded enough to cope with without bringing in all those species of termites, giraffes elephants and extra gazelles to feed the lions etc etc etc etc etc...... that is where the Noah's Ark story is completely ludicrous. [ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

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11-28-2002, 12:18 AM	#56
Sandslice Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 80	Could a ship the size of the ark exist... 1) How many animals would you need to take on the ark, such that the current variety may exist exclusive of the theory of evolution? 2) How many animals have gone extinct in the past 4400 years? Those MUST be included. 3) Do we account for "legendary" and "mythical" animals such as Unicorns, Chimerae and Phoenixes? After all, legends and myths often have a basis in reality 4) Do we account for dinosaurs, like those Tyrannosaurs that clear-cut all the gopher trees to build the ark, or the "Brontosaurus" needed to lift wood to the upper levels? 5) What would be a reasonable estimation (per "kind") of the per-capita food need, given that need to last about a year? There isn't gonna be much hibernatin' goin' on with all that sloshin' floodwater. Notes on 3 and 4: We all know YEC tactics, and yes, I will pin Hovind's ass-ertations on the rest of YECdom. In other words, here there BE dragons, archosaurs, and mythical beasts. And I am fully aware, as I have been from the beginnings of my knowledge of dinosaurs, that Brontosaurus doesn't exist. The proper name for it is Apatosaurus. Even without them, however, this is good. <a href="http://www.ucg.org/articles/clean/animals.html" target="_blank">Clean Animals Page</a> lists a respectable number of animals regarded with biblical lists as clean or unclean. -Clean Animals: It's unfortunate for Ark apologists that except for Sheep and Goats, the list of Clean mammals is comprised of deer-like animals, bovines, and giraffes. And what are these animals, if not rather large? (Don't gimme any spiel about Zookeeper Haon using young animals, either. The extra attention would be a logistical impossibility.) -Other animals, which are unclean: --Elephants --Behemoth... err... hippos. --Unicorns... err... rhinos. --Bears --Lions That should be enough to push the food requirement to impractical. If not, just throw on a few genera from Order Saurischia. (To counter any possible YEC argument about taking reptiles as eggs, you can't be assured of getting exactly two mated pairs from four random eggs. Therefore you need to take 'em alive!) As to the food itself, the problem becomes apparent, not only of eight non-zoologists attempting to pack enough food for all these critters, but also of storing the food AND the critters under the greenhouse conditions a pure WaterWorld would generate... without it spoiling, and without the wonders of refrigeration and central air. Ever seen Chilly Willy?

11-28-2002, 04:02 AM	#59
One of the last sane Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: hereabouts Posts: 734	What is a gopher tree anyway?

11-28-2002, 04:07 AM	#60
Sandslice Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 80	Pro'ly a cypress tree, made of "gopher wood." Remember, we gotta go by a literary (err... literal) interpretation of the bible. "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch" Oak wood comes from oak trees, so gopher wood must come from gopher trees!

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