notMichaelJackson

My thesis is that it is next to impossible to enter heaven (whatever it is). Therefore, worship of the Christian God is not justifiable as it so improbable that anyone will enter heaven.

Premise 1: The Christian God exists.
Premise 2: The Bible gives an accurate description of him.

First, Jesus proclaims that "none shall enter the kingdom except through me.” The vast majority of people in the world have never even heard of Jesus, so at least 66% of the people who have walked the earth cannot enter heaven, nor can young children who never had the chance to accept Jesus.

Second, there is the issue of death in the state of sin. Fundamentalists claim that we must confess all of our sins to God and be forgiven in order for us to enter the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, the Catholic Church holds the doctrine of “mortal sin,” a sin that separates us from God. In order to have a mortal sin forgiven, we must confess this sin to a priest. If either of these two premises is true, then no one can be sure they are saved, because it will always be possible for us to commit a sin and die before we have a chance to perform whatever task is necessary to have it forgiven.

Note that it is not just the modern Christians who have proved that it is next to impossible to enter heaven. Jesus himself stated that "few” would enter the kingdom. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matt 7:13-14). “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt 22:14). Also, despite fundamentalist claims, not all Christians will enter heaven. “Not every one that saith unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven…” (Matt 7:21).


Also, extreme righteousness, meekness, and baptism are required to enter heaven. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:20)
“Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 18:3)
“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

Oh, and if any of us do succeed and perform the Herculian task of entering heaven, we shouldn't get too used to it. Remember that we will have the ability to uprise and be forced out, unless our free will is removed.

For all the reasons I mentioned above, worship of the Christian God is not justified because it is next to impossible to enter heaven.

Melkor

And from how it sounds, I don't think I'd be wanting to spend any time in Heaven anyway. It sounds awful.

Ohio_Infidel

Landover Baptist has a similar idea here .

Magus55

Do you have proven statistics for studies done of how many people know of Jesus? The Bible is the most published, read book on Earth, in more languages than any other book in existence. Jesus Christ is the most famous human every to walk to the Earth. I can almost assure you, your 66% is completely off. I'd say 5-10% ( not counting children) have never heard of Jesus, if that. Every muslim and Christian has heard of Jesus. Thats 3.2 billion right there. I'm sure most Asian religions have heard of Him, so thats another billion or 2. Unless you have lived in a jungle all your life, its doubtful you haven't heard of Jesus.

Demigawd

Disregarding your assertion that Jesus is the most famous individual of all time (I thought that was John Lennon), there's a big difference between having heard of Jesus and being part of a group that believes Jesus is the universal savior of humanity. The Quran views Jesus as a prophet, nothing more. Why should someone of a different religion believe your Jesus is anymore than a mythical figure than you would view a character in another religion? Because some evangelical drones on and on about him? Because you say so? Consider how trustful you are of other religions or, for that matter, secular views.

Watch out, Magus, your double-standard is showing.

notMichaelJackson

First, I agree with what Demigawd said (look above). Muslims do not teach that Jesus Christ was the Savior of mankind, and Islam definitely is not a form of Christianity (despite what liberals tell you).

Second, if all people who have walked the earth since the beginning of time are counted, then only about 33% of people have heard the Gospels (the only accurate account of Jesus Christ, according to Christian). The Bible may be the most widely read book of all time, but it has been read mostly by Europeans, Latin Americans, some Africans, and a small percentage of the Indian population. There are still vast areas of the world where several people have not heard the Gospels (the jungles you pointed out, China, parts of the Middle East, ect). That's the modern world. Plus all the people in history who never had a chance to hear the Gospels (the vast majority of the world before 500 AD)

Third, is that 5-10%, plus all the babies and toddlers, irrelevant? Do they not matter? It's ok for God to send them to hell simply because they never heard the Gospels?

[sarcasm]What a loving, fair God![/sarcasm]

PS. Very few of those who hear of Jesus and worship him will enter heaven. See the first post in this thread.

Magus55

You would.
The OP's point was that 66% of the world has never even heard of Jesus. He didn't say, they didn't know He was the savior. And as i pointed out. The Bible is the most famous and read book, in the most languages on Earth, and has existed longer than almost any other book we know of. More people have read or seen parts of the Bible, than they have the dictionary. Whether you believe what the Bible says is true or not, isn't the point. All muslims know what the Christian Bible says about Jesus, they even mention in the Koran, that he is just a prophet, not the son of God. So yes, even religions that don't believe He is the Savior, know how He is depicted in the Bible.

Demigawd

Yeah, well, I am a deceitful unbeliever destined for hell, ain't I?

An assertion made by Christians who want to consider an argument by quantity to be convincing. Yet, it may be considered the ultimate power of materialism over ideology as in those with the the material wealth have an advantage over those who don't. Puritans who believed that wealth was an indication of God's favor would be proud of your observation.

So, age is an indicator of validity. You must consider pagan mythologies to be more accurate than the bible then.

An assertion you cannot hope to back up, beyond wishful thinking and Christian missionary propoganda.

They do? So, you're saying that consideration of Christian assertions is a standard of Islamic theology? Which Islamic school did you learn this in, or are you relying on the testimony of your buddies over at raptureready?

So, you're a scholar of the Koran now. Have you actually touched a copy of the Koran, or are you relying on the testimony of your buddies over at raptureready?

Yeah, in the same way that they know that Heracles is the son of Zeus in Greek mythology or that Sigurd is the son of Odin in Norse mythology: ie., common world-wide beliefs that chief gods get a boner for mortal women, and just can't help themselves. And these bastards just happen to be our gateway to eternal lives.

beastmaster

The unstated premise is that Xn belief is justifiable only if it is in one's self-interest. I think some Xns would argue that God's demand of faithful worship is not subject to cost-benefit analysis.

But you make a fair argument against Pascal's Wager.

notMichaelJackson

This is not an arguement against Pascal's Wager (this thread has nothing to do with it), but rather an explaination of how the Scriptures do not present a God who truly loves the world and wants everyone to enter heaven. It is actually closer to Drange's ANB than a refutation of PW.