Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Other Michael · 05-25-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
It also has to do with the fact that you really can NOT reconcile 100% what the Bible says with what the 'world' says. Not because there are no Christians who have answers, but because the world and the Bible (God/Jesus/etc.) are at odds, always have been, and always will be.

Muffinstuffer, if somehow the entire world converted to Christianity, do you think (since you don't have all the answers, I'm asking for your opinion) that the world would suddenly become a place where

Quote:

men living in whales, wizards walking on water, talking to burning bushes, casting spells to cater to large crowds, talking snakes, walking dead, etc

are commonplace?

cheers,
Michael

Muffinstuffer · 05-25-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
Hi Muffinstuffer
Also....yes, the offense of my beliefs being labeled as 'ludicrous' has occurred often. I only take 'offense' at the messengers when they repeat the same thing over and over. I do not know/have all the answers.

I think you finally got our point. What does it feel like?

To get the point? It feels...hmm...exactly the same as I did before.

Muffinstuffer · 05-25-2003, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Muffinstuffer, if somehow the entire world converted to Christianity, do you think (since you don't have all the answers, I'm asking for your opinion) that the world would suddenly become a place where

are commonplace?

cheers,
Michael

I have no clue.

The Other Michael · 05-25-2003, 02:33 PM

I asked because it seemed like you were implying that things couldn't be reconciled because large parts of the population didn't believe in Christianity. If that is the case, it would seem to follow that if everyone believed, all the "ludicrous" or contradictory items would suddenly be reconciled somehow.

cheers,
Michael

Muffinstuffer · 05-25-2003, 05:53 PM

No no....that's not what I meant. I'm sorry if I did imply that. I meant to say that parts can't be reconciled, as far as I go, simply because I don't know everything. At some point the wisdom in the Bible is going to go head to head with the human wisdom, and where we don't have all the answers from a Biblical/spiritual perspective, or where 'God doesn't give us enough information', we'll seek to fill it in with our own wisdom, and many times, it won't agree. In other words, I think there are some things that may not ever be reconciled until we see Him face to face.

Ronin · 05-25-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

It also has to do with the fact that you really can NOT reconcile 100% what the Bible says with what the 'world' says. Not because there are no Christians who have answers, but because the world and the Bible (God/Jesus/etc.) are at odds, always have been, and always will be. As I've said before, if there are plenty of people out there who can not answer your question, what makes you think I can?

The entire process you have found yourself in here, Muffinstuffer, has been for you to realize that nonsensical fables will never be reconciled with the natural world because they limit rational examination and exploration of this world.

That you have found the stamina to admit that there are no answers to these mindsnaring conflicts with what is depicted in fairy tales and what is observable is a strong indicator of your basic humanity...which is a very good thing.

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Or, for those of you who will read what I write one way, and interpret it another way, what I've said above means "I don't know all the answers, and I don't always have answers to all the questions." So feel free to feel victorious over the Christian point of view.

You misunderstand, it is not simply that you don't have the answers...it is that the answers that are available expose the Christian point of view as nonsensical, brutal and limiting to humanity.

The truly tragic thing is that despite the wondrous beauty of the universe...some are still trapped within such a blatantly manipulative and oppressive mindset for no other reason than fear.

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And you, Ronin, said pretty much exactly what I figured you might. You are out to prove a point that, in the end, is going to fall on 'deaf' ears, just as any words I can speak, no matter what, aren't going to change your point of view, nor anyone else's here. If you want me to say it in exact words, then I have no problem doing that: My doctrine says you are going to Hell.

Now, feel free to make the point you are driving at.

I realize that it was difficult working past your human love and empathy for others and admit that is your doctrine.

The doctrine of eternal punishment is in perfect harmony with the savagery of the men who made the orthodox creeds. It is in harmony with torture, with flaying alive, and with burnings. The men who burned their fellowmen for a moment, believed that God would burn his enemies forever ~ Robert Green Ingersol

Now, turn your doctrine around and reconcile it with perfect love and compassion...it cannot be done, therefore...the doctrine is false.

What you do with this insight is your responsibility.

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Also....yes, the offense of my beliefs being labeled as 'ludicrous' has occurred often. I only take 'offense' at the messengers when they repeat the same thing over and over.

I cannot see where anyone is repeating the same thing over and over...only when the spectre of nonsense is raised is the ludicrous nature of the Christian myth refuted.

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I do not know/have all the answers. I assure you that I'm going to look at the Scripture you have provided, pull out study guides, commentaries, and the like, and study them. However, it wouldn't change your point of view even if I DID have all the answers. If you are trying to 'back me into a doctrinal corner' so to speak, then that's fine, and I admit it by admitting I do not have all the answers and can not always find them.

Again, you misunderstand and I will post it again ~ it is not simply that you don't have the answers...it is that the answers that are available expose the Christian point of view as nonsensical, brutal and limiting to humanity.

Study whatever book of apologetics you wish...the most profound Christian doctrine...eternal punishment for non-belief...is unreconcilable with true love.

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That being said, now what? If you're going to continue to post to drive this point home to me again and again, you are wasting time, because I figured out a LONG time ago that I did not and never would have all the answers.

You will be unable to reconcile Christianity with the beauty of the wondrously ambiguous universe in plain view...to continue to assert otherwise will garner more refutations...civilly, ofcourse.

Muffinstuffer · 05-26-2003, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronin
The entire process you have found yourself in here, Muffinstuffer, has been for you to realize that nonsensical fables will never be reconciled with the natural world because they limit rational examination and exploration of this world.

I completely agree. You said they will 'never' (I disagree with the never) be reconciled with the natural world - NATURAL world - because they limit rational examination and exploration of this world. God can not be described with 100% rationality and logic. I don't think 100% of his doctrine can be either....I think there are some things I will not know until I get to Heaven and get a chance to ask Him.

But I do not require 100% rationality and logic for my belief. The very fact that my faith REQUIRES faith means there are some things I will HAVE to accept on faith - in other words, without proof. It is enough FOR ME, and if it is not enough for you, that's fine.

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I cannot see where anyone is repeating the same thing over and over...only when the spectre of nonsense is raised is the ludicrous nature of the Christian myth refuted.

For one, the word 'ludicrous' has been used a bunch.

For two, this loosely translates to 'only when you talk about your faith (which is darn near every post, because my faith IS the Christian faith) is when the ludicrous nature of the Christian myth refuted.' I don't mind talking about my faith, but if the only thing that will ever occur is for people here to try to disprove every single statement I post, then time is being wasted, and not by me.

Starboy · 05-26-2003, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
For one, the word 'ludicrous' has been used a bunch. For two, this loosely translates to 'only when you talk about your faith (which is darn near every post, because my faith IS the Christian faith) is when the ludicrous nature of the Christian myth refuted.' I don't mind talking about my faith, but if the only thing that will ever occur is for people here to try to disprove every single statement I post, then time is being wasted, and not by me.

Excuse me! In case you were not aware of it, religion is one of the areas that you and atheists do not share a common viewpoint. Make a note of it. If it is a dialog you are after perhaps you should concentraite on those things you and atheists may have in common. If you want to know what atheists think about religion then stop protesting so much and just read and ask questions, otherwise your motives for being here are suspect.

Starboy

Cipher Girl · 05-26-2003, 12:43 PM

Hi Muffinstuffer

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
Hi Muffinstuffer
Also....yes, the offense of my beliefs being labeled as 'ludicrous' has occurred often. I only take 'offense' at the messengers when they repeat the same thing over and over. I do not know/have all the answers.

I think you finally got our point. What does it feel like?

To get the point? It feels...hmm...exactly the same as I did before.

Hmmmmm... Unable to see the obvious irony of the situation.

Muffinstuffer, in the OP you were wondering why the irritable response from atheists whenever religion comes up in conversation. Aren't we allowed to "take offense at the messengers when they repeat the same thing over and over." Or this that only allowed for christians?

Ronin · 05-26-2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

I completely agree. You said they will 'never' (I disagree with the never) be reconciled with the natural world - NATURAL world - because they limit rational examination and exploration of this world. God can not be described with 100% rationality and logic. I don't think 100% of his doctrine can be either....I think there are some things I will not know until I get to Heaven and get a chance to ask Him.

Well, as long as you're willing to accept irrational doctrines in spite of the rational alternatives, my best to you.

Do not expect to associate with such an obviously limiting tyrannical and irrational fairy tale and still find truth and understanding, however.

Truth and knowledge, based on a rational examination of reality, hold a more principled outlook for humanity.

I think you are beginning to understand that.

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But I do not require 100% rationality and logic for my belief. The very fact that my faith REQUIRES faith means there are some things I will HAVE to accept on faith - in other words, without proof. It is enough FOR ME, and if it is not enough for you, that's fine.

Again ~ I have never imposed upon you what you SHOULD believe...I have merely refuted the Christian dogma and doctrine, which you admit is irrational ~ and I offered an alternative.

There is no such thing as a god. If such a creature really did exist,
belief would be rendered unnecessary, and the entire system
of organized religion would collapse.

Your statements are a prime example of that.

Hold to whatever belief you desire, Muffinstuffer...I hope that makes you feel better.

Quote:

For one, the word 'ludicrous' has been used a bunch. For two, this loosely translates to 'only when you talk about your faith (which is darn near every post, because my faith IS the Christian faith) is when the ludicrous nature of the Christian myth refuted.' I don't mind talking about my faith, but if the only thing that will ever occur is for people here to try to disprove every single statement I post, then time is being wasted, and not by me.

I can't speak for others, however, I assert to you, yet again, that the Christian myth is ludicrous (for the assorted silly fairy tales found within the representative 'holy' writ) and is easily refuted.

Do not be offended at the messenger...your book is a mother goose tale of boundless silliness.

I recommend you peruse the other non-religious threads and see if your opinions meet with the same discernment.

You may feel more comfortable and even have a laugh or two.

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05-25-2003, 02:33 PM	#324
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	I asked because it seemed like you were implying that things couldn't be reconciled because large parts of the population didn't believe in Christianity. If that is the case, it would seem to follow that if everyone believed, all the "ludicrous" or contradictory items would suddenly be reconciled somehow. cheers, Michael

05-25-2003, 05:53 PM	#325
Muffinstuffer Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Mountain Home, AR Posts: 199	No no....that's not what I meant. I'm sorry if I did imply that. I meant to say that parts can't be reconciled, as far as I go, simply because I don't know everything. At some point the wisdom in the Bible is going to go head to head with the human wisdom, and where we don't have all the answers from a Biblical/spiritual perspective, or where 'God doesn't give us enough information', we'll seek to fill it in with our own wisdom, and many times, it won't agree. In other words, I think there are some things that may not ever be reconciled until we see Him face to face.

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