atheist_in_foxhole

Ever hear of Andersonville prison? Ever hear the Confederate battle cry of "Save the white men, kill all the niggers!" that was used when they would find black Union soldiers?

Ever heard of slavery?



That's your "southern heritage" no matter how much you may wish to deny it.

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

wildernesse

My ancestors did fight for the Confederacy--although none of them ever owned slaves. We've always been poor as dirt, small-time farmers and mill workers.

My southern heritage is in my roots not just in the fact I have Confederate vets in my family, but in the strong ties of community and family, the tics of regional speech, regional food, etc AND the history that I share with people of this region. There is good and bad in all history, the good should be celebrated and the bad healed. I am not responsible for the acts of my forbears and neither is anyone else. I am responsible for my own actions and interactions with people today.

I also realize that people with the same heritage and background are racist, intolerant, uneducated pigs (white or black). There have been mistakes made, and horrible ones. There are still emotional issues in our communities.

The problem with the flag for many people is not that they changed the flag, necessarily, but that the emotions that charge the issue were ignored. Papering over those emotions does nothing--they need to be drug out and dealt with--and a serious public discussion/debate about the issue would have been better than a closed door surprise.

Of course, no one expects that anyone can discuss the issues calmly--a thought that should insult many Southerners.

It doesn't help that people automatically think that Southerners describes only white people, or that we're still living in Jim Crow down here. Wake up! It's not Wallace and Maddox here any more.

No, the South isn't perfect, but last time I checked, neither was California or New York or Michigan in regards to racism.

--tibac

RufusAtticus

Atheist_in_foxhole, you are a great example of the kind of ignorance about this topic that exists in America. It's no suprise that southerners fight to hold on to confederate symbols when outsides like you use ignorant arguments against them.

Whose denying their heritage? The first thing i said was that the south has good and bad things in its history. The US just as bloody and racist a history if not more so, but I don't see you arguing that the US Flag shouldn't be flown. Putting forth a hypocritical agrument not only makes you wrong, but increases the resentment in the south of non-southerners. I've stop denying my hertage a long time ago, it's time you do too.

Andersonville? What about the Trail of Tears or even reconstruction? Slavery? I remember that slavery existed longer under the US flag than it did under the CSA flag and never under the CSA Battle Flag. Racism? When was the last time a southern city had a race riot? Heck, I seem to remember the US Army doing an extemely unethical syphilis study on African Americans.

It seems to me that the USA has acted more like Nazi Germany than the CSA ever did. But you won't here me screaming bloody murder when ever the US Flag is flown.

~~RvFvS~~

atheist_in_foxhole

If you examine the founding documents of the Confederacy you will find that they are replete with references to slavery. It's true that ending slavery wasn't the number one goal of the North, but it's rather obvious that preserving slavery was one of the most important, if not the most important goals of the South.

And while it is true that the U.S. is far from perfect, it did abolish slavery following the Confederate surrender. Unfortunately, it took the South another century to fully understand that blacks were not to be treated like property.

I think we all know why blacks don't riot in the south.

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

GH

The media has an unfortuante habit of showing only the most extreme cases, so I guess it's no wonder that those living outside the South think were all racist morons down here.

I'm not suggesting, atheist_in_foxhole, that you are saying we're all racist morons.

And you don't have to convince us that the Confederacy did bad things, nor that those bad things are what most people think of when they think of the Confederacy or its symbols. We already know it. Some people choose to overlook the bad and embrace the Confederate flag as a symbol that represents the entire South, just like some people choose to overlook the bad things done by the U.S. and continue to salute our flag, and some people choose to overlook the bad done in the name of God and the church and continue to worship and pay tithes. I think these people are misguided and that Confederate symbols are a bad choice; Confederate symbols do have a higher level of negative imagery associated with them than the U.S. flag or churches (though perhaps unjustly). Those more concerned with heritage than racism would do well to choose another symbol.

It's very hard to offend me, but this comes very close. It makes me wonder if maybe you do think we're all racist morons.

RufusAtticus

Yeah so what? Do you seriously want to play the slavery game? I seem to remember a little something call the "3/5ths rule." Not to mention all the US court cases that affirmed the institution of slavery.

And only 89 years after USA was founded! That's over twenty times longer than slavery existed under CSA.

To bad the rest of the nation hasn't realized it yet.

You know absolutely jack about the South. You are seiosly reminding me of fundies who claim that there are no atheists in foxholes.

Roits don't happen here because minorities actually have power. Both Atlanta and Washington DC, two of the largest cities in America, are run entirely by African Americans. How many big cities outside of the south can say that? The South is less racist than the rest of the nation because in the south we actually have to work, live, and serve minorities. Last time I checked, most of the white supremist groups organize in Montana, Idaho, and Eastern Washington.

We all know why blacks don't roit the north west. Because they don't live there. Please, go lecture someone else on race relations.

~~RvFvS~~

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

wildernesse

Blacks don't riot in the South because they have a viable political voice and economic power--they have access to legitimate means of change and have high levels of control over their lives. They're not driven to desparate acts to assert their worth.

I'd like to know your reasons why blacks don't riot in the South--they're likely to be insulting to all Southerners (of all races).

--tibac

S2Focus

Of course, when you get outside of the major metropolitan areas, you will see that racism is alive and well in the South... but... waitaminute -- it's just like that here in Southern California.

There are places in eastern San Diego county that may as well be on a different planet than metropolitan San Diego. Tom Metzger, one of the nation's most prominent KKK "activists" actually won the Democratic primary in a San Diego County congressional district in 1980. And he accomplished this while running openly as a klansman.

Metzger has been effectively "defanged" as a result of a civil suit, but he is still attempting to promote his racist views from his base of operations right here in San Diego county.


If you go to <a href="http://www.resist.com" target="_blank">www.resist.com</a> (hold your nose -- it's the official White Aryan Resistance web-site), you'll find a Fallbrook, CA. mailing address. Fallbrook is about a 50 minute drive from my place in coastal San Diego.

When it comes to racism, the 21st century South doesn't have much on the rest of the US of A.

Koiyotnik

Dude, we have too much room up here! Even along the Canada-US border, where 90% of our population is located, we have too much room.

atheist_in_foxhole

The only reason why slavery survived after 1787 was because of the southern delegates who wouldn't permit it to be abolished.

And the only reason why slavery thrived in the ensuing years was because southern legislators and southern Supreme Court justices (who dominated the Court) made sure that it did.

Sorry for offending ya'll, but I just hate your part of the country. It's like a boil that should have been lanced long ago.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>