Freethought & Rationalism Archive

acronos · 08-10-2002, 05:29 PM

Babelfish,
You might want to check out sites like these:
<a href="http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm" target="_blank">Prison Investigation</a>
and
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm" target="_blank">Divorce Rates</a>

hinduwoman · 08-10-2002, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boro Nut:


Silly. Your arms aren't long enough.

Boro Nut

Or maybe, his arms are too long and Christianity keeps slipping out?

mizpah · 08-14-2002, 09:43 AM

FROM SCUMBLE - mizpah - how do you know Christianity causes people to behave better, exactly? It doesn't seem to help Roman Catholic priests.

ME - Don't know if I'm adding quotes the right way....
I certainly don't claim to know (or even believe) that Christianity causes better behavior. But I don't see that anything else does. I guess it kind of seems to me that, from a moral perspective, the question is kind of moot. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary that I've never seen.... and I have seen the stats that athiests are disproportionately UNrepresented in prisons, but I wonder if there are other factor that contribute to that stat.

FROM EMPHRYIO - If you could somehow "magically" increase the intelligence of people I think they would behave better. I think relying on reason instead of constantly falling back on the crutch of faith, might increase intelligence. (Unfortunately I think intelligence is more a result of genetics than environment.)
So atheism could promote logical thinking. And if the masses thought a bit more logically, it is highly probable we would all be better off.

ME AGAIN - Well, that's certainly an interesting thought, but I guess that I don't really buy that people who think logically are going to find slavery wrong, for instance. I can imagine situations in which slavery would seem downright appealing to a logical thinker.
I certainly don't mean to say that athiestic logical thinkers are going to do all kinds of terrible things, I just think that they will be as prone to "bad" or "wicked" (whatever those words mean) behavior as anyone else.

MortalWombat · 08-14-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nightshade:
Finally, if the atrocities of the Old Testament aren't enough, the Holocaust infers another form of divine "justice" if we assume evangelical Christian beliefs are true. After enduring years of hardship and near starvation in crowded ghettos, Jews are shipped to concentration camps, told to strip and are led to a chamber. They are told to expect a shower but are then horrified to find themselves choking on poison gas. They perish... and awake to find themselves in a far more "Hellish" and eternal form of concentration camp. After all, since they were "unsaved", they rejected Christ and "chose" Hell, right?

And don't forget that if the Nazi soldiers who carried out the orders later repented, they would go to Heaven when they died, while the people they tortured and killed would be in Hell.

lcb · 08-21-2002, 08:19 AM

speaking of nazis and the holocaust, I have a problem with the secular humanist support for abortion on demand and the heinous and brutal "partial birth abortion" procedure. Is the killing of healthy, near term infants moral? Christian institutions have some 'splainin to do about some things, but it seems to me that secular humanist ones do too.

Mad Kally · 08-21-2002, 08:45 AM

Quote:

posted by lcb:
speaking of nazis and the holocaust, I have a problem with the secular humanist support for abortion on demand and the heinous and brutal "partial birth abortion" procedure. Is the killing of healthy, near term infants moral? Christian institutions have some 'splainin to do about some things, but it seems to me that secular humanist ones do too.

lcb,
As you have been told before, there is no such thing as a partial birth abortion.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

brighid · 08-21-2002, 08:59 AM

Lcb,

Please do yourself a favor and educate yourself about the rules and regulations that govern the use of late-term abortions. Healthy infants are not terminated at the later stages of pregnancy. However some common diseases that are fatal, or an infant that has died in utero may be removed by either a D & E or a D & X procedure, surgical removal through a large incision through the uterus is generally not used because of the higher maternal mortality rate and the detriment it poses to future fertility. Only 2% of all legal abortions are performed after 26 weeks of pregnancy.

Some of the diseases cause fetal death, or present a fatal risk to both mother and fetus are: anencephaly, Trisomy 13, 18 and 21, polycystic kidney disease, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, Potters syndrome, lethal dwarfism, holoprosencephaly, and anterior and posterior encephalocele.

Please take the time to read the Journal of the American Medical Associations detailed descriptions of the proper medical terminology, procedures and reasons for the necessity of this procedure (however gruesome it is) <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/library/readroom/vol_280a/jsc80006.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/library/readroom/vol_280a/jsc80006.htm</a>

Late-term abortion (as it is correctly defined) is not a procedure any woman wants to undergo. The prejudicial and inaccurate stereotype of a woman who simply can�t be burdened by this child and decides to kill it, for no health related reason is fallacious and I have yet to come across credible evidence documenting such cases. Furthermore, and in most states abortion after 13 weeks is highly regulated and therefore lessens the likelihood this could legally happen.

Kansas passed the �Women�s Right to Know Act� requiring informed consent for all women who find themselves in a position to possibly choose this procedure. �Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health. Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis.� <a href="http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html" target="_blank">http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html</a>

Please browse that sight to get accurate information and some statistics about those seeking late-term abortions. Most at this particular clinic are 29 years of age, Christian and married. Perhaps you don�t understand the danger of carrying a dead fetus, or the struggle parents must go through when given a diagnosis that their child is brain dead, or that the skull of their fetus is as large as the average adult (and brain dead at this point) and delivering said child will place your wife at serious risk for permanent disability, physical harm and death.

To equate the 2% of abortions performed in the United States to the Church supported and government sponsored systematic genocide of millions of Jews (and any one else who might oppose the Nazis) for no other reason then their ethnic and religious background is simply hyperbolic BS and fallaciously appeals to ignorant emotion. That kind of uninformed, propagandist pandering won�t work amongst those who are educated and aren�t slavishly shackled to blind faith.

If you would like to debate the merits or detriments you see with the existence of legal late-term abortions then please present a well-constructed argument. Otherwise, please don�t waste our time with your nonsense.

B

lcb · 08-22-2002, 02:53 PM

REply to Brighid..

"In the vast majority of cases, the procedure(of partial birth abortion) is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so,probably does everyone else." RON FITZSIMMONS,Executive Director for the National Coalition of Abortion Providers,The New York Times,February 26, 1997 what was that you were saying about intelligent,educated people Brighid?

bonduca · 08-22-2002, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
REply to Brighid..

"In the vast majority of cases, the procedure(of partial birth abortion) is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so,probably does everyone else." RON FITZSIMMONS,Executive Director for the National Coalition of Abortion Providers,The New York Times,February 26, 1997 what was that you were saying about intelligent,educated people Brighid?

Do you have some stats from trustworthy medical sources to back this up, lcb? If so, please present them.

lcb · 08-22-2002, 03:55 PM

I want to see Brighid's stats first Bonduca, she is the one who insulted me. Ball is in her court.and p.s(got the stats!)

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08-10-2002, 05:29 PM	#21
acronos Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 216	Babelfish, You might want to check out sites like these: <a href="http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm" target="_blank">Prison Investigation</a> and <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm" target="_blank">Divorce Rates</a>

08-14-2002, 09:43 AM	#23
mizpah Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Bloomington, IN Posts: 11	FROM SCUMBLE - mizpah - how do you know Christianity causes people to behave better, exactly? It doesn't seem to help Roman Catholic priests. ME - Don't know if I'm adding quotes the right way.... I certainly don't claim to know (or even believe) that Christianity causes better behavior. But I don't see that anything else does. I guess it kind of seems to me that, from a moral perspective, the question is kind of moot. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary that I've never seen.... and I have seen the stats that athiests are disproportionately UNrepresented in prisons, but I wonder if there are other factor that contribute to that stat. FROM EMPHRYIO - If you could somehow "magically" increase the intelligence of people I think they would behave better. I think relying on reason instead of constantly falling back on the crutch of faith, might increase intelligence. (Unfortunately I think intelligence is more a result of genetics than environment.) So atheism could promote logical thinking. And if the masses thought a bit more logically, it is highly probable we would all be better off. ME AGAIN - Well, that's certainly an interesting thought, but I guess that I don't really buy that people who think logically are going to find slavery wrong, for instance. I can imagine situations in which slavery would seem downright appealing to a logical thinker. I certainly don't mean to say that athiestic logical thinkers are going to do all kinds of terrible things, I just think that they will be as prone to "bad" or "wicked" (whatever those words mean) behavior as anyone else.

08-21-2002, 08:19 AM	#25
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	speaking of nazis and the holocaust, I have a problem with the secular humanist support for abortion on demand and the heinous and brutal "partial birth abortion" procedure. Is the killing of healthy, near term infants moral? Christian institutions have some 'splainin to do about some things, but it seems to me that secular humanist ones do too.

08-21-2002, 08:59 AM	#27
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Lcb, Please do yourself a favor and educate yourself about the rules and regulations that govern the use of late-term abortions. Healthy infants are not terminated at the later stages of pregnancy. However some common diseases that are fatal, or an infant that has died in utero may be removed by either a D & E or a D & X procedure, surgical removal through a large incision through the uterus is generally not used because of the higher maternal mortality rate and the detriment it poses to future fertility. Only 2% of all legal abortions are performed after 26 weeks of pregnancy. Some of the diseases cause fetal death, or present a fatal risk to both mother and fetus are: anencephaly, Trisomy 13, 18 and 21, polycystic kidney disease, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, Potters syndrome, lethal dwarfism, holoprosencephaly, and anterior and posterior encephalocele. Please take the time to read the Journal of the American Medical Associations detailed descriptions of the proper medical terminology, procedures and reasons for the necessity of this procedure (however gruesome it is) <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/library/readroom/vol_280a/jsc80006.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/special/womh/library/readroom/vol_280a/jsc80006.htm</a> Late-term abortion (as it is correctly defined) is not a procedure any woman wants to undergo. The prejudicial and inaccurate stereotype of a woman who simply can�t be burdened by this child and decides to kill it, for no health related reason is fallacious and I have yet to come across credible evidence documenting such cases. Furthermore, and in most states abortion after 13 weeks is highly regulated and therefore lessens the likelihood this could legally happen. Kansas passed the �Women�s Right to Know Act� requiring informed consent for all women who find themselves in a position to possibly choose this procedure. �Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health. Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis.� <a href="http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html" target="_blank">http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html</a> Please browse that sight to get accurate information and some statistics about those seeking late-term abortions. Most at this particular clinic are 29 years of age, Christian and married. Perhaps you don�t understand the danger of carrying a dead fetus, or the struggle parents must go through when given a diagnosis that their child is brain dead, or that the skull of their fetus is as large as the average adult (and brain dead at this point) and delivering said child will place your wife at serious risk for permanent disability, physical harm and death. To equate the 2% of abortions performed in the United States to the Church supported and government sponsored systematic genocide of millions of Jews (and any one else who might oppose the Nazis) for no other reason then their ethnic and religious background is simply hyperbolic BS and fallaciously appeals to ignorant emotion. That kind of uninformed, propagandist pandering won�t work amongst those who are educated and aren�t slavishly shackled to blind faith. If you would like to debate the merits or detriments you see with the existence of legal late-term abortions then please present a well-constructed argument. Otherwise, please don�t waste our time with your nonsense. B

08-22-2002, 02:53 PM	#28
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	REply to Brighid.. "In the vast majority of cases, the procedure(of partial birth abortion) is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so,probably does everyone else." RON FITZSIMMONS,Executive Director for the National Coalition of Abortion Providers,The New York Times,February 26, 1997 what was that you were saying about intelligent,educated people Brighid?

08-22-2002, 03:55 PM	#30
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	I want to see Brighid's stats first Bonduca, she is the one who insulted me. Ball is in her court.and p.s(got the stats!)

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