HelenM

Hi Darren,

I'm glad you didn't see my comments as supporting her at your expense.

I hope today is a better day for both of you - or, if not today, then soon...

take care
Helen

Rhea

Darren, no need to apologize to me! It's hard to understand the situation just from reading.

My heart goes out to you. That is a wounding reply.

How can you respond? Ouch. That assumes you can think straight after what she said. I do understand how you'd be floored. But you might try, "I'm glad there's something positive about hugging me, I'll cling to that while we heal from this change". But that's easy for me to say. I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. Helen has some good insights to help you maintain compassion in the face of this...

Vicar Philip

I never dreamed my pathetic little soap opera would drag on for 6 pages!!

We had a really good day today. We celebrated my 11-year old son's birthday. It's actually on the 11th of this month, so it was kind of unique... 11 years old on 11/11. Anyway, he has become intrigued by Japanese culture, so we gave him a Japanese birthday party. We went to a Japanese house at our local university campus, then to a Japanese restaurant, then we played some games in our town hall and let them watch "Geisha Boy" starring Jerry Lewis. They all seemed to have a great time.

My wife was in a much better mood throughout the day. We even discussed religion a little bit this morning. We were talking about my skepticism about the bible and God and Jesus, and she said it sounded like she used to think when she was younger. Apparently, me being the Good Catholic Boy I was, I convinced her then that all that bullshit was true!! I don't really remember it happening that way, but if that was really what did it, what a sick twist of irony THIS is.

I'm hoping I can get her to at least regain some of her former skepticism and not take everything in that stupid book as the Truth. As far as God, she said that even though she used to think the bible was written by a bunch of superstitious old men, she always believed in God and Jesus. I admitted to her that at the same time I tell her she can't prove God exists, I know I can't prove he doesn't. Before you jump to conclusions, what I meant (and explained to her) was that IF there was a God up there, he doesn't really care too much about us. All one has to do is look around and see all the pain and suffering that takes place on a daily basis.

She still tells me that all she has to do is look at our kids and all that we have as being blessings from God for her proof. I asked her, why would he arbitrarily bless US and not another couple that lives just down the road? Noone specifically, mind you, she knew what I meant. She said she didn't have an answer. I said, that is the KEY to my non-belief. All of these questions that have NO ANSWER. It just all falls together when you stop assuming there is some benevolent Father up there supposedly looking out for the human race.

Darren

yahwehyadayada

Hi, Darren. I'm so glad to hear that you & your kids & your wife had a good day, & that some of the tension seems to have dissipated.
I haven't posted in this thread before, but now I think I have some things to say that might be of some value to you in your situation.

On the issue of counselling: This is a must. The way you describe your wife, she may not want to go to a secular counsellor. In that case, you may want to try sounding out the pastor of the new church you will be attending with your wife. I myself had a bad experience with a xian counsellor, but I believe others who have said in this thread that not all of them are bad.

On the issue of confrontation: Don't let her push your buttons! Easier said than done, I know. A book that really helped me in this regard is The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, Ph.D. The subtitle of the book is A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships, but don't let that throw you. It has good advice for everyone in a situation such as yours. It can help you learn how to not focus on her pitying looks & head shaking & instead focus on your reaction to it. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done. Since you have decided to attend church with her, at least for now, the priority is on helping you keep your sanity--at least that's how I see it.

She thinks you're "just going through a phase". I can understand how irritating that is; she has decided that you're being childish. But "phase" is good. Phase is indeterminate. Phase stretches out for weeks & months until it becomes just a part of life.

On the issue of divorce: I agree strongly with those who have advised you to seek the advice of an attorney. There is no reason why you should not be informed about what you may be facing. Getting additional information may also help you in any decision you may ultimately make. And I apologize if this sounds harsh, but I also agree with those who have advised you to set up a bank account in your own name.

On the issue of your wife's possible clinical depression. While your deconversion may have been a precipitating factor, or stressor, if your wife is suffering from clinical depression, she needs to see a doctor. This may be a touchy subject, because I have known xians who refuse to do so, insisting that they just need to pray harder. If your wife gets worse, though, that will only put more stress on your marriage. Try to find a way to bring this up with her in a loving context.

Finally, I admire you greatly for the love you have for your wife & your kids, & your willingness to do whatever you can to make your marriage work despite the overwhelming difficulty you are facing. Good luck.

Aerion

Darren,

I know that as a new deconvert, you want so much to share your new found wisdom with those you love. This is the perfectly normal and human response to the epiphany you've had and your wife and children are your most loved ones.

I also understand I'm probably not going to be popular with my fellow atheist for saying this, but I truly believe the best thing to do to save your marriage is to NOT debate religion with your wife and children.

There are so many reasons why this is the best advice and I could probably write a book about it (perhaps I will) but I will try and summarize my argument.

1> Your wife's REAL biggest fear is losing her faith. Her faith is a security blanket for her. Her faith does neither you nor her any harm except in the context of breaking up this marriage. Your best strategy is to convince her that YOU are no threat to her faith. In fact, I think Christian beliefs help make better people to those who need that faith.

2> You WERE a Christian when you married which means you have changed in a very fundimental way as far as your wife is concerned. (How would you feel if your wife suddenly decided to become a buddist monk?) You must accept that YOU changed and not her. She is exactly right when she points out that YOU are not the man she married. She married a man who shared and even validated her faith and her faith is one of the most important parts of her life.

3> As atheist we believe in Freedom of Religion. She has the right to believe as she chooses. You have to figure out how to accept and even respect HER beliefs. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people believe in God. AS silly as this belief is, it is still there. Look at how many very intellegent, very logical, very worthwhile people believe. Obviously there must be some deep seated need that most humans need to believe this. You must come to understand this and even respect those who believe it.

4> You may have finally realized God is a myth, but to your wife he is as real as the computer you're looking at. The odds are very, very small that you will change that faith. YOU must accept her faith just as she must accept your faith. When you "debate" religion with her you are attacking her perception of reality. It is a battle you will are almost guarenteed to lose. Think about it rationally. How many theist come to this board and debate Christ with us atheist?? Look at how very smart and logical some of us atheist are and how beautiful our arguments are. But, in spite of overwhelming arguments, how many theist have you seen convert here?? From what I've seen, no one has ever changed their beliefs while debating one that holds a contrary belief. Changes in belief only come from searching one's own soul. It is decision people must make totally on their own.

Ok, so how do you do accomplish this. First, as one who sees God in a logical fashion, we must accept that there is a very small chance that we are wrong about God. We have no proof that he does NOT exist. Yes, I think I'm more likely to win the Powerball Lottery than find out that God exists when I die, but nonetheless, I do have to admit that there is a chance I'm wrong.

Here are the things you should say to your wife when the subject comes up.

1> I'm a logical person and logically God can't exist. I admit I can't prove God exists so YOU might be right and I respect that in you.

2> I realize that if God does exist I might go to hell. But I hope that if God DOES exist and is as wonderful as you say he is, that he will understand that believing as I do is in my nature and judge me for my character.

3> The belief in God is a personal decision. You are free to believe in God and I respect that. The our kids are free to choose their own beliefs. In the mean time, you are welcome to take them to church and teach them about God. When the kids are curious about my beliefs I will explain them as neutrally as possible.

Keep in mind that your ultimate goal is to save your marriage.

Sorry this is so long but I felt it was important. Whether you follow my advice or not I hope your marriage works out. Keep us updated on how things are going. We do care.

Michael

LordSnooty

I don't think that's the case. I think it's more that people are just very gullible. For instance, you wouldn't argue that people have a deep seated need to believe in homeopathy - but they believe in it none the less. People are very bad at rejecting false information.

I would agree on the whole that it's more important for Darren to emphasise the positive with his wife, rather than focusing on how ludicrous her beliefs are.

Paul

HelenM

That's great to hear, Darren!

I've found that every good day helps and those days mean so much more when there's been a lot of stress (for whatever reason) in the relationship.

take care
Helen

Sabine Grant

Hello Darren: any way you could send a copy of Aerion's post to your wife? if I were in her situation as a christian woman, I would be comforted and reassured to see an atheist advocating the validation of my faith rather than present it as a problem for the relationship.

I think his comments may help her see how constructive and edifying non theist thinking can be.She needs to be presented with your own goodness to undo the unjust myth that atheists are some kind of evil.

I support non adverserial responses to issues concerning relationships. Be the mediator, gentle, self controled, and focused on where you both need to rekindle your love.Your model will speak a thousand words to her mind and heart.

Be the silent witness who calms the storms by your own model. I agree with Aerion that religious talks need to be avoided.Focus on planning activities together around your precious children.

It may seem overwhelming to you that you need to make those efforts. But you are the man. I will probably get some grief from this comment but I tend to believe that men can balance so well women's tendency to allow their emotions to take over.

With time, she will transpose her sense of safety and security towards you rather than her church doctrine. Interestingly enough part of her Biblical belief should be that her hubby is to be " her head"... her protective umbrella so to speak. It can only be accomplished by your willingness to restaure in her a feeling of feeling safe at your side. Plus if she has bouts of depression, you are dealing with something reason cannot necessarly control. You do not have to become co dependent but you can sort of " take control of those moments" and be reassuring.

Be pro active not reactive. I am placing myself in her shoes. And that is how I would find my place at the side of a hubby who suddenly changed.
He would have to guide me there.

pescifish

While I personally feel that Aerion's suggestions aren't necessarily representative of all non theists thinking (at least not hard atheist, from my understanding of the term), they do promote what I consider a healthy tolerance for differing belief systems. But that's only my opinion.

This is your thread, x-xian. I will look to you for indications as to how much theist contribution you would like. I've gotten the impression that you have found this useful.

To others reading this thread, let's remember this is x-xian's issue and if these suggestions (which do not go so far as to actually promote a theistic point of view) are helpful to him, that's the important thing.

However, taking the step past promoting tolerance into promoting the theistic viewpoint is not appropriate.

pescifish,
moderator SL&S

[edited because I used the wrong word somewhere in there.]

[edited again to clarify my clumsy use of the language to make it slightly less clumsy.]
added the words "necessarily", "all" and "at least not hard atheist, from my understanding of the term" to indicate that I'm no expert on this.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]</p>

pescifish

x-xian, if my memory is serving me correctly in this thread and progression of events, it seems like your wife gets most upset after she has spoken with someone else about the situation. On these weekend outings with just the family, it seems like the two of you are able to enjoy the company and even touch on the subject (she seems to bring it up in a nonconfrontational manner sometimes) without any huge blowups.

This leads me to think that when she gets over the initial shock, finished the rounds with all her own friends and confidentes, that she will be able to think this through for herself and find a way to accept your new beliefs.

It's very encouraging to hear these accounts of the time your family is spending together without the outside influences.