Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spenser · 06-18-2003, 02:12 PM

Should this thread be renamed to:

Magus 55 Gives up Defending the Global Flood

Joe Meert · 06-18-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spenser
Should this thread be renamed to:

Magus 55 Gives up Defending the Global Flood

JM: Looks like it.

Cheers

Joe Meert

conkermaniac · 06-19-2003, 07:32 AM

Most creationists believe that the world is 6000 years old, meaning that the world was created around 4000 B.C. The oldest discovered writings (in India) date back to around 3500 B.C. I guess they still have somewhat of an argument, until you look at the geneology from Adam to Noah.

Genesis 5:3 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son...and he named him Seth."

4000 B.C. + 130 years...we're at 3870 B.C.

Genesis 5:6 "When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh."

3765 B.C.

Genesis 5:9 "When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan."

3675 B.C.

Genesis 5:12 "When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel."

3605 B.C.

Genesis 5:15 "When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared."

3540 B.C.

Genesis 5:18 "When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch."

3378 B.C. (OK, there's already a problem, but let's go on just to see where this takes us

)

Genesis 5:21 "When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah."

3313 B.C.

Genesis 5:25 "When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech."

3126 B.C.

Genesis 5:28 "When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. He named him Noah."

2944 B.C.

Genesis 5:32 "When Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japeth."

2444 B.C.

And that's where the Bible ends and starts talking about the Great Flood. We have discovered many artifacts (including pottery, tablets with writing, bones of humans) dating back to at least 2500 B.C., without any evidence of having gone through a global flood. An even more disturbing question...how did these fragile objects manage to survive a catastrophic global flood?

Calzaer · 06-19-2003, 09:03 AM

Don't expect to get anywhere with that. Christians apparently believe math is the devil; I've quoted verses at Christians before and added them up to show them how long the flood actually lasted (way more than 40 days), and they keep telling me I'm wrong without saying how. Apparently the parts of the Bible with actual numbers in them are the parts you're not supposed to take literally.

conkermaniac · 06-19-2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
Don't expect to get anywhere with that. Christians apparently believe math is the devil; I've quoted verses at Christians before and added them up to show them how long the flood actually lasted (way more than 40 days), and they keep telling me I'm wrong without saying how. Apparently the parts of the Bible with actual numbers in them are the parts you're not supposed to take literally.

Haha, yeah...the general attitude of Christians seems to be, "No, no, physics and math has got it all wrong! Men really do live up to 900 years old; whales do swallow humans every so often; and anyone who believes in Jesus can walk on water."

<< EDIT: Maybe you're supposed to divide all the numbers by pi, which is apparently 3, according to the Bible.

>>

Peez · 06-19-2003, 09:49 AM

Quote:

conkermaniac:
Haha, yeah...the general attitude of Christians seems to be, "No, no, physics and math has got it all wrong! Men really do live up to 900 years old; whales do swallow humans every so often; and anyone who believes in Jesus can walk on water."

This gets at what the creationist movement is really about (no doubt with the exception of some individuals). Their dislike of evolutionary biology is only the most obvious manifestation of an objection to science. Sure many of them will make a show of supporting scientific conclusions, but only where such conclusions happen to fit in with their own agenda. The actual process of science is anathema to them.

Peez

River · 06-19-2003, 05:33 PM

-this article is by a well known scientist named Maurice Bucaille

The Narration of the Flood Contained in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an gives a general version which is different from that contained in the Bible and does not give rise to any criticisms from a historical point of view.

It does not provide a continuous narration of the Flood. Numerous suras talk of the punishment inflicted upon Noah's people. The most complete account of this is in sura 11, verses 25 to 49. Sura 71, which bears Noah's name, describes above all Noah's preachings, as do verses 105 to 115, sura 26. Before going into the actual course taken by events, we must consider the Flood as described in the Qur' an by relating it to the general context of the punishment God inflicted on communities guilty of gravely infringing His Commandments.

Whereas the Bible describes a universal Flood intended to punish ungodly humanity as a whole, the Qur'an, in contrast, mentions several punishments inflicted on certain specifically defined communities.

This may be seen in verses 35 to 39, sura 25:
"We gave Moses the Scripture and appointed his brother Aaron with him as vizier. We said: Go to the people who have denied Our signs. We destroyed them completely. When the people of Noah denied the Messengers, We drowned them and We made of them a sign for mankind. (We destroyed the tribes) of �d and Tamud, the companions of Rass and many generations between them. We warned each of them by examples and We annihilated them completely."

conkermaniac · 06-19-2003, 08:56 PM

The Qu'ran seems to be more reasonable when it comes to the issue of the flood. Unfortunately, Christians continue to try to justify their farcical Bible account of the flood.

By the way, in response to the argument that the ark would have turned over almost immediately, some Christians have mentioned that the ark probably did flip around in the sea. Unfortunately, this too is an impossibility, as the ark had but one window. Now this causes two problems. First of all, water from the sea and the rain would get in easily from the windows and drown animals near the window. Also, if the boat were ever to flip onto the side containing the window for even a few seconds, there would be hardly enough oxygen getting into the boat, and everyone would suffocate.

Magus55 · 06-19-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by conkermaniac
The Qu'ran seems to be more reasonable when it comes to the issue of the flood. Unfortunately, Christians continue to try to justify their farcical Bible account of the flood.

By the way, in response to the argument that the ark would have turned over almost immediately, some Christians have mentioned that the ark probably did flip around in the sea. Unfortunately, this too is an impossibility, as the ark had but one window. Now this causes two problems. First of all, water from the sea and the rain would get in easily from the windows and drown animals near the window. Also, if the boat were ever to flip onto the side containing the window for even a few seconds, there would be hardly enough oxygen getting into the boat, and everyone would suffocate.

The Ark was enormous - it didn't flip over. It floated on top of the flood waters like any ship these days does on the seas - as the water rose - so to did the Ark.

unregistered_user_1 · 06-19-2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes, humanity sinned - and it sent a domino effect through all of Creation - corrupting everything that was perfect.

What if you were a kid? Do you know what the world was like back then? 100% pure evil and corruption. The only good in existence was found in Noah and his family. Which means, like kids do - they follow their parents example - become murderers, haters, rapists, theives etc., grow up to the point of understanding sin - reject God's warning - receive just punishment and end up in hell. As oppose to judging their original sin, along with the rest of the world - and taking them to heaven - before they are held accountable for their sins. Heaven >>>>>>>> Earth, especially in that kind of world. And then of course, what happens if God only judged the adults? You would just call Him evil for leaving all those children without parents, homeless and in turmoil. Sin is a rippling effect. It affects more than just you.

Not much thinking in that response, is there? Why didn't god "rapture" those kids like he's supposed to as is claimed on that pathetic religious site you frequent? Nope. He had to KILL them. Same think with the Amalakite kids! No rapture, just swords in their guts. And to think that xians now are supposed to be against euthanasia and "abortion"!

Now, when did I ever say anything about the kids being left homeless? How could they even have any homes with the flood taking everything away from them? Why couldn't this god of yours just "rapture" them or something? Don't you think an omnipotent god could have tranported them to heaven WITHOUT killing them? What is it called when you kill people even though you had a perfectly workable alternative?

About this "rippling effect", at most you've explained why god "had" to kill the kids, but why not just snap his fingers and kill all the human, and leave the animals and plants out of it?

Quote:

There is no temptation in Heaven. No reason to sin. Why would you give your life to Jesus for Him to be your Savior from sin - repent of your sinful and evil ways because you experienced the horror and pain that sin causes ( on Earth), just so you can go to paradise, where nothing evil or sad exists, and sin some more?

Ah, you've forgotten the devil. There was no "sin" in heavan (otherwise it wouldn't be heaven) yet he still sinned....

06-18-2003, 02:12 PM	#111
Spenser Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Don't you wish your boy friend got drunk like me, Posts: 7,808	Rename Thread? Should this thread be renamed to: Magus 55 Gives up Defending the Global Flood

06-19-2003, 05:33 PM	#117
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	QURAN SUPPORTS REGIONAL FLOOD -this article is by a well known scientist named Maurice Bucaille The Narration of the Flood Contained in the Qur'an. The Qur'an gives a general version which is different from that contained in the Bible and does not give rise to any criticisms from a historical point of view. It does not provide a continuous narration of the Flood. Numerous suras talk of the punishment inflicted upon Noah's people. The most complete account of this is in sura 11, verses 25 to 49. Sura 71, which bears Noah's name, describes above all Noah's preachings, as do verses 105 to 115, sura 26. Before going into the actual course taken by events, we must consider the Flood as described in the Qur' an by relating it to the general context of the punishment God inflicted on communities guilty of gravely infringing His Commandments. Whereas the Bible describes a universal Flood intended to punish ungodly humanity as a whole, the Qur'an, in contrast, mentions several punishments inflicted on certain specifically defined communities. This may be seen in verses 35 to 39, sura 25: "We gave Moses the Scripture and appointed his brother Aaron with him as vizier. We said: Go to the people who have denied Our signs. We destroyed them completely. When the people of Noah denied the Messengers, We drowned them and We made of them a sign for mankind. (We destroyed the tribes) of �d and Tamud, the companions of Rass and many generations between them. We warned each of them by examples and We annihilated them completely."

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06-19-2003, 07:32 AM	#113
conkermaniac Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: American in China Posts: 620	Most creationists believe that the world is 6000 years old, meaning that the world was created around 4000 B.C. The oldest discovered writings (in India) date back to around 3500 B.C. I guess they still have somewhat of an argument, until you look at the geneology from Adam to Noah. Genesis 5:3 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son...and he named him Seth." 4000 B.C. + 130 years...we're at 3870 B.C. Genesis 5:6 "When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh." 3765 B.C. Genesis 5:9 "When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan." 3675 B.C. Genesis 5:12 "When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel." 3605 B.C. Genesis 5:15 "When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared." 3540 B.C. Genesis 5:18 "When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch." 3378 B.C. (OK, there's already a problem, but let's go on just to see where this takes us ) Genesis 5:21 "When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah." 3313 B.C. Genesis 5:25 "When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech." 3126 B.C. Genesis 5:28 "When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. He named him Noah." 2944 B.C. Genesis 5:32 "When Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japeth." 2444 B.C. And that's where the Bible ends and starts talking about the Great Flood. We have discovered many artifacts (including pottery, tablets with writing, bones of humans) dating back to at least 2500 B.C., without any evidence of having gone through a global flood. An even more disturbing question...how did these fragile objects manage to survive a catastrophic global flood?

06-19-2003, 09:03 AM	#114
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Don't expect to get anywhere with that. Christians apparently believe math is the devil; I've quoted verses at Christians before and added them up to show them how long the flood actually lasted (way more than 40 days), and they keep telling me I'm wrong without saying how. Apparently the parts of the Bible with actual numbers in them are the parts you're not supposed to take literally.

06-19-2003, 08:56 PM	#118
conkermaniac Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: American in China Posts: 620	The Qu'ran seems to be more reasonable when it comes to the issue of the flood. Unfortunately, Christians continue to try to justify their farcical Bible account of the flood. By the way, in response to the argument that the ark would have turned over almost immediately, some Christians have mentioned that the ark probably did flip around in the sea. Unfortunately, this too is an impossibility, as the ark had but one window. Now this causes two problems. First of all, water from the sea and the rain would get in easily from the windows and drown animals near the window. Also, if the boat were ever to flip onto the side containing the window for even a few seconds, there would be hardly enough oxygen getting into the boat, and everyone would suffocate.

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