Sojourner553

Posted by doodad:
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Oh my, but we cannot use love as a basis for morality. Afterall, it's not RATIONAL or LOGICAL.
Remember?
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It took me awhile to figure out what you were talking about with the "Remember?" line.

Then it occured to me -- you have the simplistic mindset that agnostics and atheists cannot espouse love in caring for other people/the human race.

This was a myth that was instilled in me too in my conservative religious upbringing: When I first realized that the religion my parents taught me was false, I looked up at the sky wondering if I would find it beautiful. I felt a surge of peace and happiness through me as I looked up at a spectacularly beautiful sky.

My second thought was that I was supposed to be a terrible person -- get drunk, drugs, steal, whatever -- since I didn't believe in divine retribution. My conscience immediately kicked in, "No, it was I who never wanted to do those things, not because I feared punishment. I have absolutely no desire for this."

My third thought came as a relief. "Good people weren't dying of starvation and diseases because of divine retribution. It really was all just random." I had never realized before this moment that the thought of "Why is there evil" bothered me so much. I had obviously burried it so deep in my unconsciousness.

I care far more for other people once I realized that religion was false -- because this is the only world they will ever know. When I was religious, I just sloughed off the lot of the poor, etc as "God's problem".

The people I have personnaly known with the coldest hearts -- are religious -- BTW , although they are fundamentalist religious -- like you?

Sojourner

TrueThinker

[quote]Originally posted by Sojourner553:
<strong>Posted by doodad:
________________________________________________
Oh my, but we cannot use love as a basis for morality. Afterall, it's not RATIONAL or LOGICAL.
Remember?
_________________________________________

It took me awhile to figure out what you were talking about with the "Remember?" line.

Then it occured to me -- you have the simplistic mindset that agnostics and atheists cannot espouse love in caring for other people/the human race.</strong>[/quote)

I think you misunderstood the post. It seems to me there was a hint of sarcasm. There wasn't a presumption about atheists not being able to love.

It's unfortunate you were taught that.

Getting drunk, stealing, and doing drugs are not the only bad things people do. Even if you don't do those things there are still other bad things you may have the desire to do. Tell me, are your thoughts pure all the time? What are you thinking right now? Or do you really consider yourself righteous since you do not participate in certain evils? That doesn't matter; you still make mistakes. Seems to me you came into contact with legalism. The Pharisees were legalistic aand Jesus had some harsh words for them.

God sent Jesus to earth to pay for your mistakes. Regardless of all the good that you may do you you will still sin. But God will forget your sins once you believe in Jesus and accept his death on the cross as a payment for your sins. Further, you become enabled to overome the temptations to sin by acquiring the righteousness of God.

Mankind was not created to end up going to hell.
If God didn't care the about man ending up in hell then the story would have ended with Adam and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. How long will the Lord have to plead with mankind to be heard?

So you sound like a good person. I assume you would want to do more good things. Why would you have a problem with accepting the death of Christ a as a payment for your sins and to help further rid yourself of the other evils that may reside in your heart? You can't honestly sit there and tell me you are perfectly good, can you? Do you have the smallest desire to be perfectly good?

Who told you people die of disease and starvation because of divine retribution? Deaths from starvation happens because of the greed of other men. Some just don't want to share the wealth. Where did you grow up? What you are saying troubles me? You weren't Mormon, were you?

I would agree with you that these things you were told are false. It is unfortunate that the "Christians" you know have the coldest hearts. I suggest you examine their character and compare it to that of Christ. But it would be wrong for you dump doodad into that same fabric of fundamentalism. You would not like it if he/she made presumptions about you, would you? Jesus said, "Do onto others as you would have them do unto you." Wouldn't you agree that the world would be a better place if men honestly followed this principle?

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: TrueThinker ]</p>

Sojourner553

My previous post was written exclusively to Doodad. But since you assume it was also written to you, True Thinker --&gt; I will write this one to you:

___________________________________________

True Thinker writes:
So you sound like a good person. I assume you would want to do more good things. Why would you have a problem with accepting the death of Christ a as a payment for your sins and to help further rid yourself of the other evils that may reside in your heart? You can't honestly sit there and tell me you are perfectly good, can you? Do you have the smallest desire to be perfectly good?
________________________________________________

There are a lot of threads here. I will address a few here:

comment #1:

I do focus on being the best person I can. I belong to a lot of organizations to make a better world for the next generation (which includes many environmental organizations.)

I am very fortunate I am easy-going and even keeled, so I am usually the peacemaker among people around me. No I have never (not once) desired smoking, doing drugs, getting drunk, stealing, doing mean things to kids or animals... or anyone. I hate porno and am happily married. I love fantasy (especially DisneyWorld), adventure, and sci fi.

(I do have a passion for chocolate. I used to explain at work that's why I didn't need alcohol. Smile)

When I was in high school and college I used to stand up and attest to belief in Jesus. What happened is I became convinced the Bible was based on superstition and not truth! And I want honesty and truth more than I want the comfort of believing what everyone else believes!!!

I had left this out of my earlier post: When I first realized there was no divinity, no magic -- I first asked myself if I wanted to "know" what was really true. --I answered, "I
want to know the truth. Just as if I were terminally ill, I would want a doctor to tell it to me like it really is."

Then the rest followed: I tested myself whether I could still feel beauty and compassion, because these were childhood lies instilled in me... (It is a fair comment that you state not all christians are like this. But I had specifically addressed my other email to Doodad, remember?) I had also left out I was raised as a fundamentalist Baptist, so I also acknowledge this is not typical for everyone: I remember my Sunday School teacher telling me as a little tyke how it was important for us to witness to nonbelievers. When I raised my hand and asked if people who never heard of Jesus would still go to hell, I was assured yes.

comment #2:

No one is perfectly good. I always look at my career like a game of cards where I win more rounds than I loose; to do the very best I can and not worry about the rest. I have been very fortunate to have had very high grades in college and great compliments paid me at work. Would I like to be perfect? Sure. But it is a myth that anyone can be absolutely perfect.

Indeed obsession with perfection can lead to neurosis. My favorite story on this is on Martin Luther: Prior to becoming a Protestant, it was said that Luther was obsessed at the thought he had not confessed ALL his sins to his Catholic confessor. One time he proceeded to confess long lists of his sins for six consecutive hours to a confessor.
He then kept coming back, because ever time he left, he panicked that he
had FORGOTTEN ONE MORE minor, trivial sin. It was said that the Catholic
confessor had grown so impatient with Luther, that he finally told him in
exasperation, to go out and do something "worthy" of being confessed--such
as killing his father or mother!! [He was obviously being sarcastic, but you get the point]

comment #3

If you read the Old and New Testament, you do not see perfection.

**"When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at
what He doesn't know." -- Mark Twain **


Yahweh is shown as a vengeful God. The hebrews held that God was all-powerful but not all good.

* "I form the light, and create the darkness: I make peace, and create
evil: I the Lord do all these things (Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)--The RSV Bible
softens this last sentence somewhat, translating it as "I make weal and
create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things)

* "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his
people" (Exodus 32:14 KJV)

God also put "lying spirits" in the mouth of false prophets:

* "You see, then how the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all
these prophets of yours, because he has decreed disaster for you."
(1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron, 18:22)

And God deceives:

* "And I said, O LORD GOD, thou surely didst deceive this people and Jerusalem
in saying, 'You shall have peace', while the sword is at our throats."
(Jer. 4:10)

There are also verses on Jesus in the Bible to show he was not so mild all the time.

* "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and
wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he
cannot be my disciple...And whoever of you does not renounce all that he
has cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26,33, see also Matthew 10:37).

Jesus sometimes expresses great anger towards his opponents. For
example, Matthew records the following lines from an obviously ANGRY Jesus:

"You are like tombs covered with whitewash; they look well from outside,
but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all kinds of filth...
You snakes, you vipers; brood, how can you escape being condemned to hell?"
(Matthew 23:27-33)

Jesus also advocated violence for the cause. For example, in Matthew
10:34-9, Jesus says:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to
bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law and a man's
foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother
more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more
than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow
me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who
loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)

Because of these scenes, some historical scholars believe that Jesus'
doctrine of 'turning the other cheek' and universal love were NOT founded
on a basis of "mildness", but instead resulted from a belief in the
irrelevancy of this world as compared to the superior world order that was about
to be established by God.

comment #4

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True thinker writes:
Who told you people die of disease and starvation because of divine retribution? Deaths from starvation happens because of the greed of other men. Some just don't want to share the wealth. Where did you grow up? What you are saying troubles me? You weren't Mormon, were you?
_______________________________________

It is implicit in the The Famous Philosopher's Paradox on the Nature o2f God. that is, if one accepts that
(1) God is an all powerful being.
(2) God is all good.

Then God has to be behind all terrible things that happen in this world. I understood this logic implicitely before I had ever heard of the formal paradox.

If you want to read more on this last subject, I invite you to read:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/UNIVERSE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/UNIVERSE.TXT</a>


Regards

Sojourner

P.S. You had a long list of ponts, so if I did not address all of these, please reply and I'll get to them next time.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

lpetrich

This reminds me about how St. Augustine's Confessions contains some whole chapters devoted to moaning and groaning about a terrible sin he had once committed -- when he was a little boy, he and some of his friends stole some pears from someone's pear trees.

TrueThinker

I know you were writing to doodad, I'm not blind. Should that exclude me from responding? But since I assume.... Come on now Sojourner, that's not being nice. Now you are jumping to conclusions about me which is what I was trying to prevent you from doing with doodad. Remember the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Now would you like it if I were to jump to conclusions about you? You never answered my question as to wether the world would be a better place if people honestly followed that principle.

Well that's nice and all, but as I said before, there are other evils. Are you dodging the question about your thoughts?


The way you word that troubles me. You say "you stood up and attested" but did you really believe in Jesus? What were your reasons for "attesting" to that belief? Don't tell me you said you believed because everyone else believed. I'll definitely agree with you that it would be better for you to discover truth on your own than hold on to belief because everyone else believes it. If Jesus were to ask you at that time why you believed what answer would you have given?

I have to get goin now so I will address the other portion of your post later.

doodad

boneyard bill

I'd like to return to the original point of discussion.

LianaLi cites this scripture:

Now it's quite difficult to figure out what Paul is saying in context without taking him out of context. After all, he's writing letters, he is not setting down a comprehensive philosophy.

However, Paul never says that non-believers cannot be good, moral people. But all morality, for believers and non-believers alike is a relatively morality. No one is perfect. All fall short of the glory of God. Because of sin, we are doomed to die and perish eternally. Good works will not get us into heaven because no one can be good enough to accomplish that.

But, he says, we can attain eternal life by faith in Christ. And this faith is liberating. Through faith in Christ, we are saved even when good works are absent. In fact, the Christian is saved even though he continues to sin.

Elsewhere Paul says something to this effect, "What then, should I sin the more that grace may abound?" This is one of the problems that Paul struggles with. He admits that the Christian is saved even though he sins, but still urges the Christian not to sin. What he seems to be saying is that the Christian should not want to sin. Hence, the Christian is under the control of righteousness.

I believe the point Paul is getting at is self-surrender. The Greek term pistis which is translated as faith, actually mean "trust." The Christian puts complete trust in Christ and no longer focuses on egotistical wants or desires. Therefore the Christian is no longer a slave to sin.

So Paul constantly urges his readers to act righteously but also admonishes them to take no pride in this behavior because sins of the spirit, such as pride, are worse than sins of the flesh. They are morally, in principle at least, no better than the gentiles, as humans are sinful in their nature. And the Christian's salvation is not of their own doing but is a gift of divine grace.

So the process of salvation is both a liberation from past sin and a liberation from the desire to sin in the future, but faith in Christ is necessary to maintain this process.

In fact, Paul seems to be talking about something very close to the Buddhist term "nirvana" which is both the assurance of immortality and a liberation from karma.

Sojourner553

To True Thinker:


My response was clearly marked to Doodad exclusively, because I was talking derogatively (to a very negative remark make by him/her initially). I don't like to talk that way to the general public. For that combination of reasons I did feel you were intruding at first. (I was letting you know that I was mentally having to shift gears by responding to you.)


#2: Do I worry about my thoughts. No I have been lucky that way, I guess. I have been accused of being very rational, calm and easy going. I learned long ago to do the best I could and not worry about the rest if I had done so. (Also my thoughts were usually pretty spiritual -- see further below.)

It's bugged a lot of people. As one coworker told me once, "xxx, people want you to get emotional and swear back at them. But you just give them logical reasons. They don't like that because it stops them cold."


To reply to:
__________________________________
The way you word that troubles me. You say "you stood up and attested" but did you really believe in Jesus? What were your reasons for "attesting" to that belief? Don't tell me you said you believed because everyone else believed. I'll definitely agree with you that it would be better for you to discover truth on your own than hold on to belief because everyone else believes it. If Jesus were to ask you at that time why you believed what answer would you have given?

_____________________________________

My reason for "believing" was I always had strong spiritual feelings of love and compassion for others during my childhood. I believed my childhood religion when they taught good spiritual feelings "could not" arise from within, but must be external proof of God. For example, I remember sitting in Church in high school, and hearing everyone else acting VERY unspiritual (sex slapping, tearing down others characters etc) but feeling myself in solace that at least God and I were in communion with spiritual thoughts.

Why Jesus? I was brought up in Christianity and thought my spiritual voice would have told me if this were wrong.

This was essentially the "proof" I gave the class as I stood up -- that these feelings "Proved" to me the existence of a divine spiritual being of love.

How I lost it? This took several stages. First I debated a Jewish girlfriend and realized (after many hours of talks) that she had a strong honorable Jewish tradition and that I had no logical means of "proving" my way was right.

Second, I was greatly bothered to discover many people were ALSO convinced they were speaking with God -- but it was obvious by the selfish, local, and even mean content -- that they were really conversing with themselves.

The latter spurred me to going back and studying the Bible. The analyses of the Bible I read proved (to me) that all this was based on superstition. This was reinforced after going back and studying history to see how belief in religion affected civilizations/dark ages. I was appalled at what I had not learned in my history courses on religion. (And I made straight A's in all my history courses in high school and college).

A good source for this analysis:
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>





[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

TrueThinker

The question was not wether you worried about your thoughts. The question was, "Are your thoughts pure all the time?". It's a simple yes or no answer. No need to try to paint yourself as a saint. All I'm trying to get you to do is see the truth. Is that not what you're looking for?
So tell me, in high school and college were you concerned about developing a relationship with God or were you just going through the motions? If you gave up Christianity after losing a debate to a girlfriend, it tells me your faith was not strong. Are you saying that your faith was based on feelings? Did you have any relationship with God?

Anyway, onto some points you brought up before.
Are you saying Jesus advocated violence because He said he bringd a 'sword'? I hate to break it to you but that is not what these verses speak of. If that were the case, why didn't the disciples and apostles kill their family members? Why didn't they fight the Romans of that age? Jesus is saying that the message of the kingdom of God that He brings will cause division in families. He is coming at a time when people still praticing living according to the law. Some of the people may not be ready to hear the news He brings; others will. The gospel will offend some and it will cause division. Gimme a break, if Jesus was advocating violence, then His followers would have instigated riots during his time.

Why shouldn't Jesus be angry at the Pharisees if their behavior is preventing people from being able to enter the kingdom of God? Is it wrong for Jesus to want people to enter the kingdom of God? Why can't Jesus express anger? Is righteous anger wrong? I'm sure He would have harsh things to say about the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages; it was almost the same kind of behavior. I can even go as far to say that the behavior of the Pharisees is prevalent in "fundamentalism" in the in the south. Shouldn't God be angry when "Christians" brutally mistreated other members of the human race in the south (racism)? Jesus was angry at the Pharisees and that made you abondon Christianity?

I have run out of time so I will address your other points later.

geraldmania

This is the heart of much of my anxiety and it makes me angry too. Alot of the anger is directed at myself too for not being able to shake the "long arm" of the christian law. But if I'm honest, I have to say that I'm still haunted by the idea that I've "strayed" and thus my life is more painful and less peaceful because of it. This site is helping with the intellectual side of the issues. But emotionally I'm still stuck. <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> So I hear ya sista.
-Gerald

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: geraldmania ]</p>